Even if we believed the wildly exaggerated numbers from the black book of communism, that still doesn’t compare to the victims of capitalism, Churchill alone killed millions in Bengal but you don’t care about that do you
If your claim is that he’s bad because he killed people and we show that capitalists killed more people that seems like a relevant counterargument, no? Or do bad things only count when state department propaganda agrees with you?
What do you think you’re countering with that argument? No one was discussing communism vs capitalism in this argument. Just: Stalin was an evil man.
Saying someone else was more evil doesn’t unmurder all those people, does it? You’ve countered no part of anyone’s argument because no one mentioned anything about what you think you’ve countered. You just tried to distract from the fact that you idolize a piece of shit. It’s bizarre you can’t grasp that.
Glorifying a murder doesn’t help gather support for your economic system of choice. Get a better face for your movement.
Abraham Lincoln also “murdered his own people”,
The differences are
The Soviet Union was never a safe haven
for fascists and other right-wing extremists,
so no slave owners fled over there to claim
that Lincoln “destroyed their family business forever”.
The Soviet Union never paraded US Afro-nationalists
that would make claim that since they’re oppressed,
that the lack of population growth of Afro-Americans
compared to Euro-Americans,
should be counted of dead Afro-nationalist victims at the hands
of Abraham Lincoln and other US presidents.
Like every US president,
Abraham Lincoln oppressed the indigenous people of the US,
which I will count as ‘own people’ and that equals at least 300 million people,
because that’s what the population would have been if they hadn’t been viciously
and brutally murdered at the hands of the Usonians during US history.
See this is what we’re talking about, you correctly see through some lazy capitalist mythologies (such as anarchists being mindless drug-addled destruction junkies with no political goals other than chaos) but fail to see through others, such as “Stalin was The Guy in charge of the USSR and he killed eighty bazillion people through nonspecific means, for no reason other than he was The Joker”.
Non specific means? Even if you ignore the orchestrated famine, He enacted paranoid political purges of engineers, scientists, academics, etc. Those are direct murders of people he didn’t like. And you’re over here like: he’s misunderstood. And your defense is: nuh uh/Whataboutism.
At no point did I defend capitalism. I said Stalin was a monster. And that’s an indisputable fact.
Utterly incorrect, as even “cold warrior” historians like Robert Conquest were forced to attest after the opening of the Soviet archives. And again, no motivation. Just “because evil”.
He enacted paranoid political purges of engineers, scientists, academics, etc
Getting rid of monarchist figureheads is Good, Actually. Unkess you want to argue that people like Nick Fuentes should just be left alone to spread fascism during the fragile birth of a revolution? Utterly unserious. And again: “He”. As if the Soviet union was ruled by one guy. An utterly historically illiterate take, you are simply repeating lazy mythology.
people he didn’t like
This is like when fascists say "you can’t just call people you disagree with nazis. Who were these people the Soviet union didn’t like? Might it have something to do with the genocide that was perpetrated on them, and the massive US invasion perpetrated before that? The fact that you cannot be specific at all is a dead giveaway that you’re just regurgitating childlike mythology, on the level of “Hamas hates Jews”.
And your defense is: nuh uh/Whataboutism.
Oh no, this is not a defense. History has shown that the actions of the Soviet union need very little defending. This is an attack on your Mormon-level incuriosity and refusal to engage with anything that challenges your mythology.
At no point did I defend capitalism
You did. You do. You pretend to oppose everyone while uncritically swallowing the most ridiculous capitalist propaganda about the people they fear. In 70 years there will be another version of you talking about Mandani’s communist genocide of new yorkers.
Stalin was a monster. And that’s an indisputable fact.
This is you wishcasting. You wish for it to be an indisputable fact, because you’ve built so much of your identity around it but fundamentally lack the knowledge to back it up. That’s why you fall back on religious truisms. In the end, your only defense for your willful ignorance is “it is known”: the chorus of the scared and incurious throughout history. And again, you frame him the The One Guy in charge when he was absolutely, unequivocally not. You have zero understanding of the subject and are desperately throwing out cold war cliches.
Queen Victoria killed like 80 million of her own subjects, literally in the name of capitalism, but nobody ever talks about that. It’s all “Stalin and Mao!” This is deeply misogynistic, erasing the fact that a powerful woman did it better first.
But a dozen of you are tripping over yourself to defend Stalin. For no reason. Seems you’re the misogynists here. You love Stalin despite him falling short of a woman’s (who you hate) accomplishments.
So you’re changing your own argument, now? It’s more impressive that Stalin worked his way up the ladder before killing all those people? That’s what you admire?
You’re very bad at this, and you’re convincing no one. We know what Stalin actually did & didn’t do, because we’ve actually investigated. We grew up under exactly the same propaganda as you, but all you’ve got is that unexamined propaganda, which we’ve examined and found wanting.
It’s very telling that _every single one of you _ have jumped in with a whataboutism as if that’s remotely a valid argument. It’s not even on topic. That’s the childish response. At no point had I mentioned communism at all, but that’s what your minds jump to. You can’t even admit that: tyrant bad. Being a tyrant communist doesn’t make the tyranny part not exist.
Even in Stalin’s time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist power structure. Stalin, although holding wide powers, was merely the captain of a team and it seems obvious that Khrushchev will be the new captain.
What part of this book which both confirms and agrees there were many politically motivated murders/imprisonments (even if it argues they were fewer than other sources claim) makes Stalin not a monster? It’s arguing over the scale of the bad shit he did, not whether he did it or not. Holy shit.
Stalin is not a monster because monsters aren’t real.
It’s arguing over the scale of the bad shit he did, not whether he did it or not.
The scale of bad shit he did you got from lifelong exposure to anti-communist propaganda. This misinformation isn’t neutral. It has a clear goal, and billions of dollars behind it over the last 100+ years, because the capitalist class fears nothing more than communism, because to date it’s been the only successful alternative to capitalism.
Your own source said he murdered a ton of people. That’s a bad person, regardless of the economic system the country they lead used. Why is that such a hard thing to grasp?
If you want to promote communism, don’t use a goddamn mass murderer to market it.
Killing bad people doesn’t undo killing good people. This isn’t the argument you think it is.
Hitler killed Hitler, didn’t undo all the bad he did. And wasn’t he a capitalist? Stalin wasn’t a good person just because Hitler stabbed his own ally in the back, and the ussr started killing their former allies . Or are we pretending Stalin hadn’t allied with the nazis in the beginning of the war, here?
Look man, I’m gonna tell you something you’re probably gonna write off as Bad Guy Villain dialogue or an attempt to “brainwash” you:
Good People and Bad People don’t exist in real life. They exist in movies and comic books written by people who grew up in societies less than a century out of the domination of various religions. These are magical, religious ideas about the nature of reality you’ve unquestionably accepted because that’s what was in the entertainment you grew up on, same as the rest of us. But it’s not real life. In real life, there’s just People.
People are animals who seek comfort and propserity by making decisions within a predetermined range of possibilities, and that’s it. No angels, no demons, no omnipoten god watching in judgement. The terms these religions use have no scientific wight or meaning, and Marxism is scientific. We are concerned with what can be observed and measured. Good and Evil don’t mean shit when you’re talking about observable reality, any more than Karma or Sin or any of the other mystical ways in which people have tried to make sense of the world in the past. Your way of analyzing reality and human beings is fundamentally mystical, hypocritical and disconnected from reality.
There is no person on earth who couldn’t be classified as a “bad person”. It’s less than meaningless: it actually impairs understanding and paralyzes decision making, because there is no “Good” choice. All the hallowed saints of liberal civic religion were “Bad” people. MLK cheated on his wife. Ghandi was a fucking creep to his niece. Lincoln committed indigenous genocide. But they are venerated anyway because they were either effective at advancing the interests of those who are now powerful enough to culturally mandate their veneration, or were coopted by the powers they opposed in order to make harmless sanitized icons of their messy human existence. That’s it. That’s the entire calculus behind who you hold in esteem and who you hold in contempt. You like who you were told to like, and you hate who you were told to hate, without ever really considering why. If you were born in Soviet Russia, you would have the exact opposite opinion, as millions of Russians did and still do. The difference would be that approval of Stalin is much, much easier to make an evidence-based case for than mystical condemnation is.
It’s like how liberals think that communist theory has some magical eldritch power that will instantly turn you into a communist if you read and understand it. It doesn’t. It just presents a well-reasoned case, grounded in observable reality, for the abolition of the world-drstroying system of omni-exploitation we all suffer under. It starts with facts and works it’s way towards a conclusion, rather than starting from a conclusion and working it’s way backwards with carefully curated facts. And to a liberal, that might as well be magic. That’s why you have all these cute little phrases like whataboutism that in practice simply mean “I refuse to consider what you are saying for longer than it takes to dismiss it out of hand with a gesture at some social rule built just for this purpose.”
Your entire worldview has been constructed by bourgeois high priests not for the function of understanding the world, but crippling your ability to understand anything. It’s a hermetically sealed library of pre-existing, neatly labeled boxes for messy realities to be roughly shoved into and examined no further. This is Idealism: the belief that there are eternal, ironclad categories that reality comports itself to. This is wrong: reality comports itself however it wants, and we invent the categories after the fact. The categories of Good and Bad people are as invented as the categories of Good and Bad music. People and music simply are, formed and determined by their relationship with the world around them. It is reality that determines itself, not our post-hoc ideas about it, and certainly not ideas from the medieval era.
Stalin is a flawed figure, but goddamn did he kill some Nazis
Murdering your own people = “flawed”? He was a monster. Him helping to defeat a different monster doesn’t change that.
Even if we believed the wildly exaggerated numbers from the black book of communism, that still doesn’t compare to the victims of capitalism, Churchill alone killed millions in Bengal but you don’t care about that do you
Ah but you see Bengalis are brown so they tuned everything after that out.
I’m not the one defending atrocities, you guys are. Whataboutism doesn’t stop the guy YOU’RE actively choosing to idolize from being terrible.
Let’s start with the basics, do you condemn Churchill?
Come on, you already know what they are going to say to that.
Naturally 🤣
"If I condemn everything and everyone, that makes me the most pure! Actually try to make the world better? That would only degrade my purity!’
If your claim is that he’s bad because he killed people and we show that capitalists killed more people that seems like a relevant counterargument, no? Or do bad things only count when state department propaganda agrees with you?
What do you think you’re countering with that argument? No one was discussing communism vs capitalism in this argument. Just: Stalin was an evil man.
Saying someone else was more evil doesn’t unmurder all those people, does it? You’ve countered no part of anyone’s argument because no one mentioned anything about what you think you’ve countered. You just tried to distract from the fact that you idolize a piece of shit. It’s bizarre you can’t grasp that.
Glorifying a murder doesn’t help gather support for your economic system of choice. Get a better face for your movement.
"If I condemn everything and everyone, that makes me the most pure! Actually try to make the world better? That would only degrade my purity!’
How was Stalin an “eViL” man when all he did was to kill some Nazis? Thats like calling an antibiotic evil for killing bacteria.
He’s more of a son of a bitch than Randy Walters!
Nazi = stalins (a communist) own people?
The context clues in my statement show that’s clearly not remotely close to what I said. Fuck, this community is full of the illiterate.
Abraham Lincoln also “murdered his own people”,
The differences are
The Soviet Union was never a safe haven
for fascists and other right-wing extremists,
so no slave owners fled over there to claim
that Lincoln “destroyed their family business forever”.
The Soviet Union never paraded US Afro-nationalists that would make claim that since they’re oppressed,
that the lack of population growth of Afro-Americans
compared to Euro-Americans,
should be counted of dead Afro-nationalist victims at the hands
of Abraham Lincoln and other US presidents.
Like every US president,
Abraham Lincoln oppressed the indigenous people of the US,
which I will count as ‘own people’ and that equals at least 300 million people,
because that’s what the population would have been if they hadn’t been viciously
and brutally murdered at the hands of the Usonians during US history.
See this is what we’re talking about, you correctly see through some lazy capitalist mythologies (such as anarchists being mindless drug-addled destruction junkies with no political goals other than chaos) but fail to see through others, such as “Stalin was The Guy in charge of the USSR and he killed eighty bazillion people through nonspecific means, for no reason other than he was The Joker”.
Non specific means? Even if you ignore the orchestrated famine, He enacted paranoid political purges of engineers, scientists, academics, etc. Those are direct murders of people he didn’t like. And you’re over here like: he’s misunderstood. And your defense is: nuh uh/Whataboutism.
At no point did I defend capitalism. I said Stalin was a monster. And that’s an indisputable fact.
Utterly incorrect, as even “cold warrior” historians like Robert Conquest were forced to attest after the opening of the Soviet archives. And again, no motivation. Just “because evil”.
Getting rid of monarchist figureheads is Good, Actually. Unkess you want to argue that people like Nick Fuentes should just be left alone to spread fascism during the fragile birth of a revolution? Utterly unserious. And again: “He”. As if the Soviet union was ruled by one guy. An utterly historically illiterate take, you are simply repeating lazy mythology.
This is like when fascists say "you can’t just call people you disagree with nazis. Who were these people the Soviet union didn’t like? Might it have something to do with the genocide that was perpetrated on them, and the massive US invasion perpetrated before that? The fact that you cannot be specific at all is a dead giveaway that you’re just regurgitating childlike mythology, on the level of “Hamas hates Jews”.
Oh no, this is not a defense. History has shown that the actions of the Soviet union need very little defending. This is an attack on your Mormon-level incuriosity and refusal to engage with anything that challenges your mythology.
You did. You do. You pretend to oppose everyone while uncritically swallowing the most ridiculous capitalist propaganda about the people they fear. In 70 years there will be another version of you talking about Mandani’s communist genocide of new yorkers.
This is you wishcasting. You wish for it to be an indisputable fact, because you’ve built so much of your identity around it but fundamentally lack the knowledge to back it up. That’s why you fall back on religious truisms. In the end, your only defense for your willful ignorance is “it is known”: the chorus of the scared and incurious throughout history. And again, you frame him the The One Guy in charge when he was absolutely, unequivocally not. You have zero understanding of the subject and are desperately throwing out cold war cliches.
Liberals can’t back it up because they’ve never needed to because
Hell yeah dude, you’re 12
This is a good post! 🎉
Hell yeah dude, you’re 12!
Queen Victoria killed like 80 million of her own subjects, literally in the name of capitalism, but nobody ever talks about that. It’s all “Stalin and Mao!” This is deeply misogynistic, erasing the fact that a powerful woman did it better first.
Who here was glorifying Queen Victoria? Not me.
But a dozen of you are tripping over yourself to defend Stalin. For no reason. Seems you’re the misogynists here. You love Stalin despite him falling short of a woman’s (who you hate) accomplishments.
Being born into royalty and, by pure happenstance, becoming empress of the largest empire in history at its zenith is no accomplishment.
So you’re changing your own argument, now? It’s more impressive that Stalin worked his way up the ladder before killing all those people? That’s what you admire?
You’re very bad at this, and you’re convincing no one. We know what Stalin actually did & didn’t do, because we’ve actually investigated. We grew up under exactly the same propaganda as you, but all you’ve got is that unexamined propaganda, which we’ve examined and found wanting.
It’s very telling that _every single one of you _ have jumped in with a whataboutism as if that’s remotely a valid argument. It’s not even on topic. That’s the childish response. At no point had I mentioned communism at all, but that’s what your minds jump to. You can’t even admit that: tyrant bad. Being a tyrant communist doesn’t make the tyranny part not exist.
So will you admit that Lincoln was evil?
He wasn’t a tyrant. He was elected, several times.
CIA COMMENTS ON THE CHANGE IN SOVIET LEADERSHIP
So you DON’T hate her for killing tens of millions of children? Wow. You seem VERY problematic.
#girlboss #slayqueen
I see someone hasn’t done the reading.
Start with an easy one, work your way up to the 19th century theory.
Source: Welsh Underground Network https://share.google/hhOibo9wTsGbvooLi
What part of this book which both confirms and agrees there were many politically motivated murders/imprisonments (even if it argues they were fewer than other sources claim) makes Stalin not a monster? It’s arguing over the scale of the bad shit he did, not whether he did it or not. Holy shit.
Stalin is not a monster because monsters aren’t real.
The scale of bad shit he did you got from lifelong exposure to anti-communist propaganda. This misinformation isn’t neutral. It has a clear goal, and billions of dollars behind it over the last 100+ years, because the capitalist class fears nothing more than communism, because to date it’s been the only successful alternative to capitalism.
Your own source said he murdered a ton of people. That’s a bad person, regardless of the economic system the country they lead used. Why is that such a hard thing to grasp?
If you want to promote communism, don’t use a goddamn mass murderer to market it.
I didn’t provide any sources.
Killing bad people doesn’t undo killing good people. This isn’t the argument you think it is.
Hitler killed Hitler, didn’t undo all the bad he did. And wasn’t he a capitalist? Stalin wasn’t a good person just because Hitler stabbed his own ally in the back, and the ussr started killing their former allies . Or are we pretending Stalin hadn’t allied with the nazis in the beginning of the war, here?
Westerners truly are the most propagandized people on the planet
Quick question, what’s this?
Look man, I’m gonna tell you something you’re probably gonna write off as Bad Guy Villain dialogue or an attempt to “brainwash” you:
Good People and Bad People don’t exist in real life. They exist in movies and comic books written by people who grew up in societies less than a century out of the domination of various religions. These are magical, religious ideas about the nature of reality you’ve unquestionably accepted because that’s what was in the entertainment you grew up on, same as the rest of us. But it’s not real life. In real life, there’s just People.
People are animals who seek comfort and propserity by making decisions within a predetermined range of possibilities, and that’s it. No angels, no demons, no omnipoten god watching in judgement. The terms these religions use have no scientific wight or meaning, and Marxism is scientific. We are concerned with what can be observed and measured. Good and Evil don’t mean shit when you’re talking about observable reality, any more than Karma or Sin or any of the other mystical ways in which people have tried to make sense of the world in the past. Your way of analyzing reality and human beings is fundamentally mystical, hypocritical and disconnected from reality.
There is no person on earth who couldn’t be classified as a “bad person”. It’s less than meaningless: it actually impairs understanding and paralyzes decision making, because there is no “Good” choice. All the hallowed saints of liberal civic religion were “Bad” people. MLK cheated on his wife. Ghandi was a fucking creep to his niece. Lincoln committed indigenous genocide. But they are venerated anyway because they were either effective at advancing the interests of those who are now powerful enough to culturally mandate their veneration, or were coopted by the powers they opposed in order to make harmless sanitized icons of their messy human existence. That’s it. That’s the entire calculus behind who you hold in esteem and who you hold in contempt. You like who you were told to like, and you hate who you were told to hate, without ever really considering why. If you were born in Soviet Russia, you would have the exact opposite opinion, as millions of Russians did and still do. The difference would be that approval of Stalin is much, much easier to make an evidence-based case for than mystical condemnation is.
It’s like how liberals think that communist theory has some magical eldritch power that will instantly turn you into a communist if you read and understand it. It doesn’t. It just presents a well-reasoned case, grounded in observable reality, for the abolition of the world-drstroying system of omni-exploitation we all suffer under. It starts with facts and works it’s way towards a conclusion, rather than starting from a conclusion and working it’s way backwards with carefully curated facts. And to a liberal, that might as well be magic. That’s why you have all these cute little phrases like whataboutism that in practice simply mean “I refuse to consider what you are saying for longer than it takes to dismiss it out of hand with a gesture at some social rule built just for this purpose.”
Your entire worldview has been constructed by bourgeois high priests not for the function of understanding the world, but crippling your ability to understand anything. It’s a hermetically sealed library of pre-existing, neatly labeled boxes for messy realities to be roughly shoved into and examined no further. This is Idealism: the belief that there are eternal, ironclad categories that reality comports itself to. This is wrong: reality comports itself however it wants, and we invent the categories after the fact. The categories of Good and Bad people are as invented as the categories of Good and Bad music. People and music simply are, formed and determined by their relationship with the world around them. It is reality that determines itself, not our post-hoc ideas about it, and certainly not ideas from the medieval era.
I don’t consider the bourgeoisie to be our own people.
I don’t consider the bourgeoisie to be people.