US auto makers were too busy doing stock buybacks and building Canyoneros while the Chinese were building next gen factories and investing in battery technology. The Chinese government has subsidized their auto industry to dominate the EV market while the USA subsidizes their auto industry but with wild and often stupid swings in expectations.
That may be true, but do Chinese EVs smell like steak and seat 35?
Didn’t think so.
Canyoneeerrrroooo!!!
Not in America they’re not.
Which fucking sucks! The selection of electric cars on sale in America is terrible!
US admin and auto industry: “We’re digging our own graves? Let’s double down!”
I’m guessing a big part of the problem isn’t even the Tesla politics or the right-wing perception of EVs… it’s probably close to 100% cost. They’re expensive AF and everyone in America is poor. Most EVs are touted as a luxury ordeal with luxury prices. China can do cheap EVs, but that doesn’t work with American business’s demand for profit margin.
Maybe it’s time the corporations go through some austerity measures?
Think of it like Kodak with digital cameras. Even knowing the market is being disrupted, even having the technology, there is never a short term reason for self disruption. If the company can’t consider the longer term while a market is being disrupted, they will not survive. Of course selling a couple thousand EVs is not going to earn back the cost of entirely new factories and supply chains after two years. Duh. Of course it’s easier to sell hundreds of thousands of legacy vehicles built in legacy factories that are already paid for using supply chains that already exist. But one of those approaches is on a decline to the grave while the other is a paradigm shift for the entire global industry
Doesn’t help the US is so anti-competitive, so protectionist, so many policies favoring excessively large inefficient vehicles. By the time we emerge from this smog of political chaos, legacy American car companies will no longer be able to survive independently nor compete globally.
But the car companies certainly lay deserve a lot of blame- across the entire car market preferring to sell fewer more expensive vehicles, rather than more vehicle that are more affordable.
Chinese businesses also demand profit margin, they just don’t have worker’s unions or a minimum wage.
Lmao China has both minimum wage and worker’s unions (literally the CPC can be considered one giant worker’s union).
The real reason things are so cheap in China is that it has spent the last 50 years building its productive capacity specifically so that commodities can be affordable for everyone, and everyone has a job that will allow them to afford that. The US, on the other hand has spent the same period ensuring the entire economy works to enrich a few people at the cost of everyone else.
Lmao China has both minimum wage
No, there is no federal minimum wage in China, and the provincial ones are lower than any western country.
and worker’s unions (literally the CPC can be considered one giant worker’s union).
Sure, in the sense that they also have a “democracy” where only one party is allowed. If you believe their propaganda, I have a bridge to sell you.
The real reason things are so cheap in China is that it has spent the last 50 years building its productive capacity
You mean because western capitalists have spent the last 50 years building its productive capacity.
Do you really think they’re going to let the people have any control of that?
ensuring the entire economy works to enrich a few people at the cost of everyone else.
And China copied that and took it to the extreme. Why do you believe their propaganda so easily? Are you Chinese?
problem isn’t even the Tesla politics … Most EVs are touted as a luxury ordeal with luxury prices.
That is Tesla politics. Tesla specifically wanted to build a luxury, very complicated machine as their first EV. While Chinese automakers did the opposite, they began small with less complicated machines (hey smaller battery for smaller weight) and then built more complex and luxury models on top of that base
Well yeah. It’s hard to compete with a country with no minimum wage or labour protections. And no worker’s unions, they’re literally illegal. It’s a capitalist paradise. They’re either going to move their manufacturing to China, or turn America into it.
Because the US famously has great labor protection and livable minimum wage and no slave labor.
/S
China has both minimum wage (https://www.china-payroll.com/2026/01/09/china-updates-minimum-wage-standards-across-multiple-provinces-2025-overview/) and worker’s unions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_relations_in_China). The All-China Federation of Trade Unions is the largest union in the world.
China has both minimum wage (https://www.china-payroll.com/2026/01/09/china-updates-minimum-wage-standards-across-multiple-provinces-2025-overview/)
China has no federal minimum wage. And what cities and provinces do have one, it’s way lower than anything in the west. Your own article confirms this, although I’d like a more reliable source than “china-payroll”.
and worker’s unions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_relations_in_China). The All-China Federation of Trade Unions is the largest union in the world.
Did you even read the article you posted?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_relations_in_China#Slave_labor
The people do not own or control this “worker’s union” any more than they have a say in what happens in the Party.
Do you also believe America is a functioning democracy? Because if you believe these country’s propaganda lines, I have some stuff to sell you.
There just aren’t that many domestic automakers actually attempting the market the way China is. I think part of the reason for that is the adoption rate of American drivers of EV’s. Especially without the tax credits to subsidize the cost. The US is struggling to sell new cars and EV’s make up only 10% of new cars sold.
There just aren’t that many domestic automakers actually attempting the market the way China is.
I don’t want to nor think we should try to compete with a country that employs slave labour.
Exploitative labour practices in China may have paid dividends for us westerners, but I don’t want to work the way they work.
The State of California uses slaves to fight forest fires.
Okay, but here’s what I mean. Ford decided at the end of 2025 to cut back on manufacturing and far scale back it’s plans for producing more electric versions of their vehicles. They did that because the demand for their EV’s isn’t there because the price point for them is ridiculous.
There’s a lot of EV’s sitting on dealer lots, so much so they were last I checked giving incentive programs to get employees to buy them.
That hasn’t got anything to do with China or BYD and everything to do with the fact that their cars arent selling because potential buyers don’t have money.
My comments had nothing at all to do with the labor practices of China.
There’s a lot of EV’s sitting on dealer lots….
And there’s one of the major problems; using the stealership model. Buying from Tesla or Rivian or Slate is/will be a breeze because it’s all online. No haggling with a stack of shit in a suit about cost or going somewhere to be told “we don’t sell the EV models here”.
Bitch, you’re a dealership. You sell cars.
Tesla’s sales are in the dumps too. Last I checked they were down 9%. Rivian’s sales were down to something like a 3 year low as of the beginning of this year. The fact is, the vehicles cost to much for the average American.
One of the main reason a country’s government will subsidize or otherwise encourage green energy and EV adoption is as a geopolitical strategy to reduce dependence on oil, due to the fact that most oil-producing nations are deeply unstable for one reason or another. The USA’s problem is that it is one of those deeply unstable oil-producing nations, and so it wants to keep the renewables market suppressed and the oil and oil derivatives market boosted.
Here in Ireland we don’t have one jot of domestic oil production, so renewables are seen as a way to not be held hostage by the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune (and idiotically unnecessary wars in the Middle East, and idiotically random tariff wars) because we do have our own water, wind and sunshine. America doesn’t have that natural incentive to the same extent that we do.
Heck even oil producing European countries such as Scotland and Norway, considers renewable the future
The US is struggling to sell new cars and EV’s make up only 10% of new cars sold.
I would love to buy an EV but a brand new car is too expensive and there’s not much in the way of reasonably priced, used EVs available so I’m currently sticking with the internal combustion engine.
I’m sticking with my ICE cars because they have buttons and switches and only a tiny screen and won’t be selling my data to my insurance company and aren’t SUVs.
Though I did put a deposit down on a Slate truck.
I have bad news for you about modern cars.
There’s a reason I don’t mind dumping thousands into two decade-plus-old cars.
Well, two. The other is that it’s still probably cheaper than buying something.
And what are the bad news?
Both China and EU are making certain physical switches a requirement; Due to the safety risk of ‘all is computer’
I put a deposit down too. Living somewhere kind of remote, I do worry about how far away a trained service shop will be. They’ll have less maintenance requirements for sure, but there will still be maintenance required.
FWIW, my local shop claim they can handle state Inspection, brakes, tires, and suspension work on my Tesla. The most likely to wear items are also more generic.
Of course an accident or some other breakdown is an entirely different story
Especially without the tax credits to subsidize the cost.
Too bad the US doesn’t have access to cheaper non-US made EVs.
Yep. Politics is part of the reason too. But only part of it. Most Americans can’t afford a new car even if it’s cheap. That’s why new car sales are so low. The tax credits helped a lot of people buy EV’s. Now that the current Admin has gotten rid of the credit people aren’t buying or leasing them but people can’t afford the pre-owned vehicles either.
So what I’m saying is, people can’t afford to buy used EV’s either.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a70020914/why-2026-will-be-a-great-time-to-buy-a-used-ev/
Just saying, but people not being able to afford a new vehicle is because of politics. Not Republican vs Democrat politics, but capitalist vs worker politics.
Yeah. I wasn’t clear. I meant like. Not due to car manufacturers lobbying against EV’s or tax credits etc to encourage people to by them/make them more affordable. That kind of thing. I wasn’t thinking about the socioeconomics of why people can’t afford cars.
Don’t forget all the infrastructure that goes with EVs and an additional cost to add charging to your home or even having your own house to plug them in.
If you have a parking space with a nearby power outlet, you can make do with that just fine.
If you don’t, yeah, that’s rough.
This is largely an out of proportion concern. As long as you’re like most people and park your car at home overnight for 8+ hours a standard extension cord and outlet is sufficient. If you need rapid charging then your life follows an irregular schedule or you got the absolute largest battery for the largest SUV/truck available.
Totally.
I’m in a rental townhouse and only have a 110v standard outlet and it absolutely is enough is most cases.
I was determined to drive at least mostly electric even if it cost somewhat more and the best I could afford was an Outlander PHEV. So if I do have to do more in a day than the battery it just swaps to engine. Daily job commute and other household driving and we are still floating between 75-90% electric drive.
My wife wasn’t convinced in talking through it with her. However she had never driven either an EV or PHEV. I got her to drive a Kia EV9 and she loved how it felt but it was just too expensive and she still at that point felt like it was only a pure EV thing to drive like that.
Then we test drove the Outlander and she immediately wanted it. It is an electric first design and you can feel it.
In my opinion we should have been doing traditional hybrid and/or PHEV back in the late 80s. Built up the battery manufacturing and quality and be on full electric for basically all home use vehicles by now.
For heavy load and construction it should be bio diesel hybrids. Not that those are ideal either but still the best we can do in short term tech swap.
And then of course trains. More trains.
The outlanderss are nice. They use Nissan chassis with Mitsubishi drivtrain. They are well equipped. I drove an ionic5 which I think the ev6 is and they are awesome. I would like to have an ionic5 or 6 n.
They’re not cheaper. They’re just being sold below cost for the express purpose of putting their competitors out of business.
My side does it: necessary and just subsidies in the national interest.
The other side does it: flooding the market with unfair subsidies!
Bad strawman. What situation are you even describing here and who is “my side” exactly, every automaker in the world that isn’t based in China?
People …READ. 75% of all EVs in the USA is a whopping 5% of total sales.
No one in most countries can fit US tanks on their roads.
23% of sales in Europe. 60% in Asia.
Would be a lot more if they didn’t plainly cheat with their protectionist measures keeping the better and cheaper Chinese cars of the market or make them expensive with tarriffs
I thought I just read an article about how they were making and “selling” all these cars only to junk a lot of them. I guess it doesn’t matter if they are driven after they are sold as long as they are sold? Are these cars going directly to the scrap heap an amazing feat of technology for China, who also builds cities no one is allowed to live in? This is the future?
You got a source to back up your extraordinary claim?
I was a bit mistaken, it was about prototype cars. Anyways, anyone cheering for the Chinese EV industry should know exactly what they are cheering for https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
I’m not on anyone’s side but the earth’s
I was a bit mistaken
Weird way of putting “I was completely wrong”
No, they’re not.
Next idiotic question?
Good bot.
Cretin.
plonk, as we used to say in the good old days.
Lol, some mouth on you.
I don’t understand. Using Elon in charge of Tesla? How can it be failing? I thought he was a genius and not just some guy that had a profitable company partly in thanks to all the carbon credits being sold?
Remember when Tesla was just a play to sell more batteries? This is now BYDs business model.
I don’t remember that ever being a thing, actually. (Edit: as in “it completely went under my radar”)
It was related to Tesla giving away it’s electric motor payments, Elon said he did it to encourage battery sales.
Opening patents could help facilitate the expansion of battery charging infrastructure and ultimately create customers for Tesla’s future battery factories, Kallo said.
Tesla has a goal of producing a mass-market electric car in about three years, and the company hopes a large-scale factory will leverage its projected demand for lithium ion batteries to reduce their cost. https://abcnews.com/Business/elon-musk-gain-giving-teslas-patents/story?id=24111407
Better watch out for Kazakhstan. They are KICKING OUR ASS in potassium production. Soon, every American child will be a Kazakhstanian bride, and I did not cost taxes for the majority of my life to deal with this mumbo jumbo garbage. That’s why I voted for Trump. Also, it’s the “Kazakhstanian” part of this that bothers me. That’s why I voted Trump.
Why are you coming at Kazakhstan? Can you go see a ballet for like 4USD? Does your city have a subway and tram system?
Because your country is only known to Americans because a singular comedy movie where the main character is pretending to be what Americans believe a person from a place called Kazakhstan is like, that’s how relevant you are. You exist. Congratulations. I got shit to do.
It’s good to be irrelevant to Americans because otherwise Americans will shit up the place.
See, the cool thing about this is that I’m American and I’m engaging in banter and you’re butthurt and prejudiced and projecting hate. That’s what different about us, specifically.
Actually I am the one engaging in banter and you are the one with the hurt butt. Checkmate.
Bro. I like anal pain. Even if I was butt hurt at this moment, I would be joyous. But, I actually thought you were the same person and I went to comment on the other person’s original comment and then I realized.
Kazakhstan number one exporter of potassium. All other countries have inferior potassium.
There is a legitimate reason to not want Chinese government subsidized cars to undercut American auto makers, but it’s also correct to say that American automakers can’t compete with Chinese automakers right now even if they were in a similar cost footing.
It’s hard to feel bad when GM intentionally killed electrics back in the 90s, the ship where America leads the world in EV production may have already sailed then. We may yet see the American auto industry have its Kodak moment.
We’ve tried nothing and we are all out of ideas
It’s nuts how the phrase “Kodak moment” has changed.
There’s no reason to be protective over the auto industry. The years where auto plants could transition to weapons fabrication are over; the manufacturing process has become specialized to chase efficiency. If anything, it’s justice should American car brands go out of business, because they were subsidized and propped up time and time again and stole the money given to them to afford innovation. Most recently in 2010, when American cars lost in the marketplace because they didn’t match hybrid efficiency, they simply did not meet or exceed their competition. Instead, they sat on their asses, took the bailouts, and the Japanese sold better cars. Now, Japanese cars are losing to Chinese cars, while still maintaining superiority over American cars.
Anecdotally, the newest gen Ford Bronco, Explorer, and F150 ICE cars are terrible. I got to daily drive all of them while my Lightning was in the shop for repairs because they couldn’t loan an EV. Those cars were noisy, slow, awfully designed interiors, inefficient, and just plain cost more than the competition.
Same in Germany. Took the money, took subsidies and did nothing to innovate. Now they earn to get out of business (but we’re fucked since the state owns some of it and made us dependant).
That is not entirely true. The new VW ID.Polo is a very nice new compact EV for a reasonable price for example.
If I were in Germany, I’d buy a Chinese car without even thinking about it.
Do you remember how vw betrayed us and the environment? You might argue everyone did that, which is true. Does not make it better though.
Too little too late.
I remember that very well. Doesn’t change anything about the ID.Polo being a great car for a competitive price tag. Chinese cars in Europe aren’t much better priced.
Fair point, I can agree on different opinion here. For me with that VW is not a company I will do any (direct) business with, as in deal breaker. In contrast to the US we also have not been reimbursed any loss (which I coincidentally directly had, selling a diesel).
America has a toxic masculinity problem. Americans keep buying giant trucks and SUV and Jeeps. GM did put out some legit hybrids and EVs like Volt, Bolt EV, EUVs. But didn’t sell enough. So we are stuck with shitty gas guzzling cars that keeps getting bigger and bigger.
America has a toxic masculinity problem.
Yeah the “manly dude” starter pack’s cornerstone is a f-150 or silverado. It’s just a baseline requirement.
Also though, mom has to have a canyonero to get groceries and shuttle the kids because “mama bear needs to keep her kids safe from all those giant cars out there”.
I don’t even drive anymore, but I hate the American insistence on BIG vehicles. I loved my Prius, Prius V and Civics. They were all great cars. My kids have an older Fit and it’s a fantastic little car. If only it came in electric!! Or was sold at ALL in the USA, ffs
American vehicles are way too big even by my standards, but the cars you listed, I would have a hard time getting into or out of the rear seat. Gotta be at least mid-size and up for me.
Can you give me that legitimate reason beyond hurting poor Ford Chevy and GM’s pockets?
For starters the 300,000+ people employed by those two companies (Chevy is GM). Perhaps you meant to include Stellantis (Chrysler) which would make that number closer to 600,000 people. The auto industry was a big driver of the 2008 crash.
That’s before we even start to get into the issues stemming from a Chinese monopoly on the auto industry. What happens if American, Japanese, and European auto makers go out of business and then China stops the subsidies? We will literally be in the same situation we are now but with money going to China instead of paying domestic workers.
So what.
Protecting them from china and bailing them out multiple times hasn’t done anything.
It’s almost like poorly run businesses SHOULD FAIL.
Are we a free market capitalist society or not?
Idk, as I said before sounds like everyone Big Mad because China is better at capitalism than the west. We could easily sell vehicles for cheaper costs by producing closer to local markets and making simpler cars. But then the corps wouldn’t keep their over inflated stock prices.
I agree, western automakers could easily lower prices.
-
Get rid of unions
-
Lower wages in auto manufacturing AND every industry in the supply chain (mining, etc).
-
Every country that manufactures cars needs to mine and produce its own materials (may need to create more humans to work these industries)
The engineers and designers at BYD make less money than assembly line workers in Germany or the US.
-
America’s somehow STILL in the fucking around phase.
Yes, and? They’ve been propped up by the USA govt for decades. If they can’t compete with China or Japan, that’s their own damned fault.
Ford and GM are only a fraction of the auto industry in the US. The majority of sales are foreign brands, but none of them can compete as companies against the entire nation of China and its willingness to put them all out of business and takeover said auto industry. They own the mines, materials, and labor and have bottomless pockets to subsidize their vehicles and dell them well below cost.
How is any company supposed to compete against that?
Make better products?
Like every car from not China sucks hard, but they keep going on about prices.
None of them ever tried to make good cars.
Then yoy can get comparatively better cars for much cheaper? It’s not like you have much of a choice.
Lol this is a very naive, internet-brained take. Have you actually driven all these cars along with their Chinese counterparts? What makes every non-Chinese car suck so badly exactly? Is it because they’re not selling $60k cars for $15k?
Who wants 60k car full of surveillance and badly designed tech?
Slate had the right idea, but Bezos is involved, so we will see.
But every major brand has lost the plot a decade ago, they all took massive amounts of money from government and did fuck all with it and gobbled each other up. Now they act shocked that people prefer anything other than the 6 brands that remained.
I agree that Slate has an interesting idea but they have an uphill battle with the marketing. Unfortunately, the US, to a great extent, particularly the rural US, sees electric cars as being “more tech”, which they equate with more frustration. Naturally EVs actually could likely have simpler computer systems than ICE cars, but, for instance Tesla chose to slap a huge iPad in their cars when consumers want dials.
For all the technical superiority of EVs, it’s hard to convince the average person that they should drive a novel looking “high-tech” vehicle, when a Toyota Camry is an easily available, affordable option. Most people with F150s don’t need them, they want them. Slate isn’t competing for those people, it’s competing for the people who buy Impreza’s, Corollas, and Camrys. I’m not sure it’ll work out.
For an industrial on-site work truck for running errands, I’d bet they sell like hot cakes, but that’s a much smaller market.
By maybe not massively inflating the price of their cars and manufacturing their vehicles closer to local markets? Like idk what to tell you, it just sounds like youre mad because china is better at capitalism lol
How much should these cars be selling for then? Can you give me a breakdown with your expert knowledge? Can you also explain why it is that every automaker in the world outside of China is participating in this alleged price fixing scheme rather than undercutting each other?
How many cars are being built far outside their local markets? What ones specifically? How much is this adding to the cost of these vehicles?
Let’s see some actual facts.
From your lips to Milton Friedman’s ears…
And China subsidizes over 50% of every EV that is exported. It’s called economic warfare, dump a bunch of shit onto a market cheap and destroy everyone elses economy in that area. Chinese EVs aren’t magically “cheap”, they pay workers almost nothing and subsidize the rest.
And American companies definitely don’t take government hand outs left and right
You got a source for those facts?
You saying the US government has not given Detroit $88B since 2008?
It’s a good thing that China subsidizes EVs. We should be doing that too!
We subsidize EV purchases in much of Europe, regardless of where they’re made. That way there’s no economic warfare, you’re not pushing cheap product to drive competitors out of business.
The Chinese model is designed to kill off competition worldwide so they can eventually raise prices. They can afford to do it because unlike every other country with a manufacturing economy, they can use tax money to do whatever they want without worrying about re-election and also they are the world’s most important trade partner. It’s easier to stop trading with the US or EU than with China.
People would vote for a government that gave them cheap electric cars. This has nothing to do with needing to win elections, it has to do with pleasing daddy US and daddy doesn’t want the world to stop using oil. Europe is a US neocolony.
us, eu wont, because OIL countries funds the political parties , they wont give it up, they will die holding onto it.
It’s sad watching the U.S. and Japanese auto industry self-destruct in slow motion. There are a lot of smart and capable people in the auto industry, but the management are stuck in an 80s design and manufacturing process.
I don’t think it’s done them any good to have trade restrictions trying to protect US sales. The increased pressure of better foreign car sales in the US would force more rapid adaptations.
The oil lobby has been actively encouraging this for decades. Automakers are lock step with the oil lobby. This is so people have to stay reliant on petrol.
There’s no EV infrastructure here where I live. The amount of scam solar is like 10:1 here as well.
What is scam solar?
Once or twice a month we get people crawling the neighborhood, 5 or 6 of them just walking down the road, no credentials and they wanna get me free state funded solar and all the need is a picture of my electric bill to prove I’m not already receiving the payment blah blah blah. Eventually a cop comes by a day later and asks about it because one of the old people got scammed.
So how does the actual scam work?
Sometimes it’s that picture of the bill; they use it it switch you to a more expensive energy provider.
Pretty straight forward, put them on as many rooftops as you can regardless of suitability or quality components. Collect government rebate +/- co contribution.
Is the Japanese auto industry in as bad shape as the US? Where I live Nissan Leaf is everywhere, but that model might be an exception?
Toyota CEO: “Unless things change, we will not survive.”
This is Toyota though. So by, “unless things change” he just means, “unless the world turns their backs on EV and switches to hydrogen fuel on a traditional ICE package.” Toyota refuses to accept that people want EVs.
Yeah fuck Toyota, they have been actively steering consumers away from BEVs to their hybrids for decades so that they can keep that sweet replacement parts cash rolling in. Here in Australia when they finally launched an EV, they gave it a ridiculous alphanumeric name that nobody remembers (and I refuse to look out up) - almost like they wanted it to fail. I’ll never own a Toyota again.
Read the interview with the Ford CEO. Who drives a Xiaomi SU7, imported from China and he refuses to give it up.
It is the arrogance of car makers all over the world. No one is matching the innovation of the Chinese car makers. This includes European giants like Volkswagen and BMW who are suffering in China.
http://autofreak.com/vw-bmw-mercedes-china-sales-collapse-q2/
Despite having cases of car makers that receive
subsidieshandouts from EU countries and then leave anyway to produce in China or elsewhere, Belgium just gave Volkswagen 119 million.
Let’s see how long it lasts.Plus the price is outrageous here. I was reading china has electric cars for like 15k
Yes. You can get cheap EV’s here for this price, like the BYD seagull. But most standard EV’s like sedan or SUV start more around the 200000 RMB MARK or 30.000 US$.
Like the Xiaomi SU7 that the Ford CEO is driving, is around the US$45.000. But it’s an amazing car. There is nothing in the US or Europe that can compare. I personally prefer the Xiaomi YU7.
Last month I was in Europe and rented an Audi A3 sport, and that didn’t even have rear view cameras or GPS!! The newest Maestro (car brand from Huawei), has an espresso machine built in.
I’ll have to deep dive into the Xiaomi, thanks for the breakdown
You’re welcome. You should also check out the other major car brands like Xpeng, BYD (the largest EV car maker in the world) , Li, Nio, Geely (who owns Volvo and Polestar)
It’s obvious the table is turning around because other people matters in todays world too.👌👌👌
