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what is this @UwU_Underground thing i keep hearing about and how does one gain access to such a privileged esteemed group
Jokes on you I am an iOS for mobile and Linux for desktop user. I’ll carry on now.
IOS users hate Windows. Linux users hate Microsoft.
I don’t hate Microsoft, I hate nonfree software. I happily use free software developed by Microsoft, eg VSCodium.
I even avoid that, because of their EEE past. Also because if I’m going to run something as heavy as VSCodium, I might as well run Jetbrains IDEs which I personally find more ergonomic. Nonfree software, sure, but I like them as a company generally.
I like the JetBrains IDEs too from a purely practical perspective, but I would still rather use FOSS VSCodium than a nonfree JetBrains IDE. Those that are FOSS are a different story.
I switched to Linux because I hate Windows. I also dislike Microsoft, but I would have tolerated them like I tolerate my health insurance company if they didn’t make the UX increasingly terrible.
I could have installed iOS but Linux is more reliable for gaming afaik, and iOS may start enshittifying at any moment.
On what device were you going to install iOS on?
on my laptop yk
i want ios to perish
iOS is fine. I fucking hate apple, but iOS is a baby gate that protects (metaphorically) undeveloped minds from getting into danger…
…he says while leashed to his android phone…
Fuck that ai artist watermark
FTFY
iOS users were *nix users 15 years before linux was actually usable
iOS is not unix like, stop spreading misinformation
Wrong, fuck off. iOS is based on BSD. Stop being stupid.
Correct.
IOS is based don’t Mac OS, which is certified unix.
what
iOS is a fork of MacOS, which is actually UNIX
in any self respecting independent posix benchmark MacOS is almost always leading or at least in the top 10% at being the worst one(s) in posix compatibility, iOS completely hides all and any UNIX-like userspace to the end user, MacOS hasn’t cared about posix compatibility and unix-likeness more than enough to get a cert to claim posix compatibility and ships outdated versions of many CLI utils and many things in which although outside of POSIX are expected to be in a certain way in unix-like OS which MacOS simply doesnt follow or care at all (e.g basic FHS, /home etc…)
Classic Mac OS was not unix like. Mac OS X, which was based not next step was. But that came out in like 2001.
iOS came out in 07
Next step was based on BSD, which was based on UNIX, you fucking idiot
How can you breathe?
Shit, I’m still waiting for the day macos (I assume that is what we are actually talking about here) is usable.
I was playing WoW on linux long before the iphone was a twinkle in steve jobs’s eye.
WoW was introduced in 04 or 05 and the first iPhone was 07 depending on how you trace iPhone lineage that’s not exactly correct.
If we trace iPhone back via PDA’s we have to start talking Newton which was out by the early to mid 90’s so it predates Steve’s return so it was definitely a twinkle in his eyes.
I used Gentoo in that timeframe and it wasn’t exactly a simple process to get any Linux running on a laptop (desktops were different I’m sure) which is why I used Gentoo. I figured if I was going to have to search and compile shit I might as well compile the whole thing.
PDAs are not “SmartPhones”. if we want to go that route, we can trace the first “Smart Phone” to the Berkley Unix “Mobile Phone Device”.
iPhone was the first to market, but to get there required them pushing vendors into exclusivity agreements and Steve Jobs threatening to “flatten Thier companies, in court” if they backed out and refused.
Steve was very biligerent to his friends and allies. shrewd, like a dictator, not like a general. if he didn’t like your descent he would steamroll over you. he would make promises all the time to his staff, to get them to work harder on projects, just to peacemeal them and shoehorn them into weaker projects that would make customers dependent and demand more.
what Steve jobs did best, is know how to make a cult and exploit the desire for “if only it could do ‘X’ it would be perfect”.
don’t take my word for It. his business partners said the same thing… they begged him to come back as he sabotaged them externally when they tried to improve…
apple went through a period where they genuinely were improving. they sold Thier software and hardware to third parties to make Thier own versions…
but then Steve jobs went and sabotaged them, got a massive amount of bad press for apple to make them appear weak, and put the 2 final nails in the coffin.
he pushed software vendors to support m$ and next step more.
then he went to apples suppliers and made it for it was even more difficult for them to develop in-house hardware to compete with third parties…
all of this, so they would start to go bankrupt so Steve could ride in on his white horse going “See, you should of stuck with my vision”. then Steve goes and pushes for restrictive hardware with a architecture change so third party models would be obsolete, clones pc-clones from asia (mostly JVC/nec) which were exploring with transparent plastics and still tried to shovel next step to everyone…
If not PDA how do you trace the history of smart phones?
by the first device intended to run full applications from external developers and interact with a active web.
this even puts palm, blackberry and early windows mobile devices barely outside of the cutoff sadly. they simply weren’t designed for the “extensions” people used to make them bridge into becoming a “smart phone”.
most of that list also is post-iphone/iPod too, which makes it kinda moot.
it’s kinda why windows phone, iOS and Android are treated as the “first” of their kind. as that was Thier intent from the start.
Apple users are the OG Windows haters.
More like the OG “shiny is better” users
All those shiny Apple 2’a, Macintoshs, Quadra’s, LC’s etc. super shiny beige plastic
Windows was less shitty in the 90s too
I wouldn’t know
no?
Yes
In the 90’s there entire mailing list and Apple paid advocates. Many in my generation used Apple computers in school and carried them forward, when I got to college there were Apple specific computer labs.
I’ve been using Apple computers since 1980, Linux really didn’t become mainstream and usable until the late 90’s
Linux really didn’t become mainstream and usable until the late 90’s
Linux didn’t exist until 1991.
Though there may have been some people in the 80s who were used to Unixes running on workstations that thought that MS DOS and the Windows software was stupid. But who knows.
Yggdrasil was introduced in ‘92, Debian and Slackware ‘93 so it worked well enough in the early 90’s to be usable.
I didn’t really install Linux until ‘04ish so I have zero real world experience with early Linux, but it’s interesting to follow the Slackware forum on LQ to hear what the truly old school folks have to say.
BSD was the OG windows haters. Apple was the OG ,“Let’s license hardware/software and call it our own”.
remember where Darwin comes from.
Apple has had operating systems long before OSX in 2001.
Apple is just a few years younger than Unix
Had to check, Unix was released 3 years before apple was founded. I’d have given a 5-10 years lead to Unix but no, about the same age.
Unix dates back to the 1960s. you have to count back to the BELL/AT&T days as it was available to educational institutions.
apple was still using BASIC on Thier first machines long after netbsd
Yea ‘68 for Unix, ‘75 for MS, ‘76 for Apple.
But really it’s ~’80 for both really getting started
Hate having an iPhone but we need it to keep in contact with family, it can never connect with KDE/Linux very well.
I may not like Apple, but I have to admit it’s better than anything from Microslop. Low bar, I know.
I dislike apple, but I dislike Google A WHOLE lot more.
You know, over the last few years, I’ve gained a begrudging respect for Apple. They really care about UX, build quality, OS efficiency, and they’re even the best value proposition at several price tiers. I main Fedora and GrapheneOS at home, yes, but I enjoy macOS and iOS at work. macOS has some of those key professional applications that haven’t made it to Linux yet.
Apple is a pretty easy 2nd place in most areas, 1st for laptops specifically. Windows & ChromeOS can fight for 3rd but they’re miles below macOS and Linux.
They really care about UX, Ui
Do people really like just having rows and rows of random icons on their home screen?
Huh? You don’t have to have icons on your home screen.
They spy on people, they lie, they’re a littéral cult
Source: i worked there
Could you elaborate please? I’m interested to know.
I meant more if you have knowledge about something that wasn’t publicly known. This was 7 years ago and got btfo’d, hence the article about the firings you posted. Also everyone I know turns off Siri because it is useless.
They got btfo’d and then 1 months later they hired the same people through some other contractors to do the exact same thing. I knew them well.
That’s known. Siri data is kept for improving the models through human labeling. It’s not like it was hidden, just read the damn privacy policy.
If that’s your magical source as an insider, I’m sorry, but you’re bullshitting. That didn’t prove anything you said too
It’s not spying as it wasn’t their goal. It sure is shit, but you can’t compare that to the stuff Microslop and Google do
That’s not the problem. With the false positive they were hearing people during everyday interactions. I remember my colleague bothered by the fact they were hearing people having sex, talking about drugs, all the while with personal information written on screen.
Do you want some guy in Apple headquarter hears some random snippet of your life because you pronounced the word “Shiny” and the model messed up?
I disabled that voice activation feature for this exact reason, but yea, what’s shitty is that people had not been clearly informed at all
and yet it will still listen, just not trigger. check wireguard…
Lol, did you miss the ios 26 update?
They really care about UX, Ui, build quality, OS efficiency, battery life
/me side-eyes macOS Tahoe
Have you ran into issues with Tahoe?
It looks like shit and is demonstrably slower than Sequoia because of all the liquid ass.
what are you talking about.
Ux/UI has slipped over the last decade.
build quality generation after generation got worse.
os efficiency, my iPad is TERRIBLE…
They actively sabotage old devices to make their performance and battery life /worse/ so it makes new devices feel better…
then you say “best value”. that’s some major copium. what value is there in a $2000 device with $180 worth of components, a locked down ecosystem that tracks everything you do, scans all your data and sabotages your applications…
I remember first gen iPhones. I had one. I still have lots of classic apple hardware. you are literally sounding like a apple care technician.
Tips Fedora
M’lady
No but for real, that was one of the main reasons it took me so long to test Fedora. I associated fedoras (and Linux in general) with sweaty basement dwellers for many years. Not to mention “red hat” has a different connotation than it did in the 90s. Yeesh. But I’m glad I got over it, Fedora works the best for my needs and Linux isn’t nearly as hard as it’s made out to be. Might try Cachy at some point though.
People still associate Linux to command line without a GUI and lack of compatibility with hardware. But, honestly, besides some issues with drivers on OpenSUSE 15 years ago, I have not had any issues with Linux ever.
For sure, it isn’t even only the corporate or specifically beginner focused distros that are like this these days either. Most distros have gotten with the program of having GUI choices for most things, easy ways to install proprietary drivers if they weren’t allowed tk bundle them already, and even their own ecosystem like an app store.
Some FOSS software does not work as a full replacement for missing professional software, but that’s about all that comes to mind as far as issues.
MacBooks are just better. Even before apple silicon they had a distinct fit and finish advantage, but now with the M series chips they are just on a completely different level.
Have to agree. I used to write their laptops off as a joke before 2020 due to them having the worst feeling/least reliable keyboard and having overheating issues, however they addressed every issue I had with their laptops when they debuted the M1 models. This seriously made me change my opinion of Apple overall and even the new MacBook Neo is impressive for the price too.
Hardware specs have gone up, prices have come down, competition prices have gone up, competition software has gone way down. The only way I’d recommend a laptop besides a Macbook is if you can find some nice second hand or refurbished laptops, preferably lightly used business class and/or from an auction. And even then, I’d only recommend it if they’re wanting to commit tk Linux and need a laptop specifically, or need a Windows only application. Vendors are really out here selling Windows laptops with 8 GB RAM, horrendous build quality, at damn near 1k. My work provided Windows machine is an i7 (2024 I think, maybe 2023) 32 GB RAM and sits at 16 GB RAM with my basic set of Office applications and browser tabs open. My work provided Mac has an M2 and 8 GB RAM, sits at a little under 7 GB RAM, and feels less laggy with the same programs and tabs open.
Desktops are a different story, though in specific use cases, Mac Studio/Mini/iMac are decent options too.
easy to find the bots in this thread.
ever heard of Linux and Framework? arm is great for phones, doesn’t belong In a laptop…
M1(and successors) are amazing processors. but, being stuck into a ecosystem for one is not worth it. I for one cannot wait for full size RISCV CPU cores… honestly, the market desperately needs a shakeup from all of this “I didn’t have a choice, so I chose the most expensive thing that met my minimum specs” copium.
Lol definitely not a bot. I’ve always been more of an Apple hater due to the ecosystem and business practices, but they’ve turned it around a lot in the 2020s. They’re still a trillion dollar company and not to be trusted, but yeah, they make great laptops.
I main Linux on my desktop and old laptops, like I mentioned. You can say ARM doesn’t belongin laptops but Apple has proven that’s not true. They outperform just about any chip, with battery life efficiency that is not even approachable by any other laptop chips. That’s just the facts. You can spend 3k for a laptop chip that is as good in performance as an M5 (which costs 1k), or you can get a Snapdragon chip that is almost as good as an M5 for efficiency, for over 1k. But not both. That’s where we’re at. Intel especially is asleep at the wheel. At least AMD is making good desktop CPUs still.
I’m also excited for RISC V, I’m considering getting one on an SBC to make a CyberDeck out of. It’s not come as far as ARM yet but it’s promising and we need an open standard.
https://system76.com/desktops/thelio-astra-a1.1-n1/configure
Seems to work fine outside the Apple ecosystem.
?? I’m not following. sure you can run arm based CPUs as a mobile device, but performance of large applications or x86 applications is poor.
there is also the addressable memory space issue that exists due to most arm core designs targeting phones… the bus is super limited, despite the architecture technically supporting much much more.
current RiscV cores suffer this same flaw as well.
the reason arm cores have better battery life is they are designed with phones in mind… not a desktop cpu. x86 mobile CPUs are cut down desktop CPUs with tdp restrictions. there is a massive difference as a result.
we are talking completely different design philosophies. it’s like comparing a ebike to a sports car… sure the ebike gets great energy economy when you scale the batteries. it’s half petal powered and has tiny draws on lightweight frame. it’s apples to oranges.
motorcycles would be more apt, but for arm, none really exist outside of obscenely priced workstations.
Yet over here as someone who has used macOS professionally for over a decade, I feel like I’m watching the slow deterioration of the operating system as they ignore the wants and wishes of professional users and make the whole thing more and more like a mobile OS with every update.
And at the same time it feels like the number of bugs and broken features which Apple were historically careful to control are getting worse as they prioritise moving fast over being robust.
They are still outperforming Microsoft in every user-centric metric IMO (and by a long way) but the current trajectory absolutely feels like things are getting worse, not better.
They moved their desktops to ARM, now they have a single architecture to maintain. It just makes sense to dumb it down so they can ship one OS for everything they make. After all, people will blindly buy it anyway.
It’s all just MacOS anyway so they just stopped shipping the x86 build it’s not really a great loss.
100% this.
I used macos for over a decade, and kept getting Kore and more frustrated with the ui and ux decisions apple kept making. Now I use Linux on my computers and am so.much happier. Linux has its problems, but at least I can fix most of those problems. I’m not forced to use anything.
On my phone I use graphene os, and while I hate dome of the ui/ux of the base aosp, at least it’s not sucking up all my data.
I am curious to know what features you’re referring to. I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m relatively new to the Mac train after all and I tend to not be as plugged into the Apple community because uh…well you know. The only thing I’ve heard is some people not liking liquid glass for a potential performance hit, but I haven’t seen any tbh. They’re also dumping Rosetta soon but I think it’s been a reasonable enough amount of time.
For me it’s mostly small but annoying issues.
Wifi refusing to connect to some access points with no indication of why. Keyboard shortcut to change desktop spaces stops working when USB monitor is connnected. That sort of annoyance that never used to happen.
And then just the general direction of travel. More AI. Getting increasingly difficult to install unverified apps. User consent still seems to be there and things are usually opt in and not out (which is great) but the nudge towards cloud is just that bit stronger all the time, and every update I’m watching for shenanigans.
If you’re new to macOS and coming from Windows then everything probably seems pretty awesome in comparison - and it is - but I don’t have the same trust as I used to.
WiFi I can’t say I have a lot of experience with, just my home and work, and those work. One is 5 GHz, one is 2.4 GHz.
The keyboard shortcut to switch spaces works for me. So does the trackpad 3 finger gesture and magic mouse swipe. I’m on the latest update but it’s never not worked. USB-c monitor.
I also hate that direction, but that’s just tech right now unfortunately. Apple seems to be resisting most of it. Apple Intelligence is half assed at best, and not forced upon you. I forget it is there. Really just so they can say they did something Ai related for investors without actually wasting too much money.
Linux is better for telemetry obviously, and there should be zero, but again Apple is far ahead of everyone else, and mostly only strengthened their commitments, with some VERY noticeable exceptions like client side scanning in the UK. Even privacy enthusiasts like Michael Bazzel recommend it for privacy and security if you are too tech illiterate or need it for work stuff. After changing settings of course.
Storage options are abysmal but luckily there are encrypted cloud options, you don’t have to use Apple’s. I’m glad I am not limited to buying Apple’s storage, I need it for my data hoard at home. For work though it doesn’t impact me, cloud is better in fact.
“Unverified” apps is complete bullshit, you got me there. Everyone else seems to be pushing it too besides Microsoft and Linux. I will be PISSED if they take it away the same way they do on iOS, and I’m hoping the App Store monopoly lawsuits go somewhere.
yep, hardware became better. Software became worse
ios clearly took inspiration from windows vista for the glass design
and vista very clearly took inspiration from apple’s aqua; this whole “apple liquid glass copied windows vista” argument is very stupid.
hardly. Aero seen it’s development start before aqua was a published design.
Aero appeared in MSDN builds a full 4 years before…
if anything its a ripoff of a old gnome 2/3 theme. I think it was called ice?
alot of that era was ripping off gnome and KDE ui designs… there was Portable Media Players using Linux kernels on arm hardware that predated the iPod and Zune by a full 3 years…
advertising and paid reviews on tv and magazines got you sales and buried everything back then…
you could steal the US president and hide it with a single fox news broadcast in 2009…
It was all Xerox if you go back far enough.
Both macOS and Windows are the same thing: Proprietary garbage
Only one of them is UNIX.
I think macOS is more like quality garbage. There’s actual development happening there. It’s still garbage, but you know. It’s garbage that stray cats would eat
I wouldn’t feed it to strays. it’s like poisoned sausages that animal control uses. it looks and smells good, so the desperate fools think they can fill their starving bellies… only to get locked into a death spiral.
apple, google and Microsoft are all perfect examples of what happens when you mix a lack of ethics with people desperate for anything that isn’t junk.
Me being an iOS user and Linux user be like
See, I like iOS because it integrates with my work laptop of a MacBook Pro. I don’t need to fiddle with my phone anymore and all texts just come through my laptop.
But also, I like tinkering/programming stuff on my time. iOS just works for the most part.
But it would be nice to not be giving money to corpo tech.
But I mean, really, it’s all in what software you use. I used iOS with Linux for a while with KDE and KDE Connect along with Tailscale to connect the two with amazing results. Its not all bad. I like Android + Linux better, but iOS + Linux is definitely doable, at least it’s not iOS + Windows.
When I can finally get a Motorola Graphene phones, iOS is gone.
Idk if it’s going to be signed then. If it is and graphene passes at least some layers of the BS Play Integrity API, then it would be perfect
Doesn’t play integrity make you feel “safer”?
Same
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I’m an iOS user too. I’d switch the day there’s a nice little Android smartphone that’s compatible with a Google-free OS (and by “little,” I mean under 5.8 inches, I don’t have giant hands).
People are so hateful towards Windows these days. I hated Windows when it was “good”, but don’t anymore because I don’t use it or actively check on what changes Microsoft make, it’s kinda surprising that the hate became so mainstream and I only learn from media on why that is the case.
For me the last golden era of Windows was around 2019 when they were making a lot of changes that helped out devs like WSL 1 and 2 and the new terminal. I guess I should’ve air quotesed golden era because even Windows 10 had ads built in. Prior to that it was 7 but that might just be rose tinted goggles.
Naaah, Win 7 was best. They didn’t fuck with control panel, Aero slapped, system was fast, stable and customizable. Win 7 was a system made for the user and felt like future.
8 was, from what I heard, not that bad and 10 entered freefall. 11 got jetpack, but was badly oriented so it boosted itself down.
So no tinted glasses. 7 was actually great.
I have both lol
😒
