inspired by lemmitors at https://lemmy.ml/post/49343381
any guy in it just for women to wear skimpier clothing should probably be investigated.
Fuck clothes. Like, FUCK CHOTHES! Do y’all think that’s the most pressing issue of our times?!?!?
Nobody was ever kill for wearing hijab A lot were killed for taking him off. Your false equivalence is revolting.
It’s like making it illegal for women to wear makeup and thinking you “freeing them of cultural values originating from patriarchy.”
NOT forcing a specific gender to look a specific way is what I personally want.
Oh look a Strawman!
This is propaganda.
Lmfao I even linked where I saw that argument but don’t even bother with it you can just scroll further down. Everything is propaganda.
My mistake, I misread this and thought you were arguing for the opposite.
The whole idea of wearing a piece of clothing for some god is cringe as fuck.
Cringe must of course be eradicated by the state.
Calling what others like to do “cringe” is the cringiest thing of them all
true, but forcing someone not to wear something by law doesn’t address the cringe. the problem is the force, not the clothes.
Lol that thread is a cesspool but I’m glad in classic lemmy fashion, its not shadow banned or locked.
I don’t want to add more fuel to the flames but it’s a case example of why I don’t take the EU seriously when it comes to free speech laws or claims of “secularity”.
France and UK were out here blocking Bosnia from arming itself during the genocide carried out by Serbia because they didn’t want a muslim country to exist in Europe.
feddit banned luigi and pro gaza content because it’s apparently illegal to discuss those topics in Germany, as if an internet forum talking about foreign news needs to be regulated by the government.
It’s not as bad as reddit, but there are some seriously god awful comments on that post trying to justify poorly disguised ethnic filtering laws.
I think all adult women should be able to wear whatever they want.
I am ready to get my next ban for linking the paradox of tolerance.
This is not the gotchya you wish it was.
If you mean it how I think you do, then you very much deserve it.
Hijab is not a choice, but a strong form of operession on women.
Really wish I had that lady izdihar video right now… dude’s as confident as he is wrong…
Women need the agency to decide for themselves, and not have the decision made for them by men, or the state. The only way any clothing is really oppressive is if it isn’t a choice, and in that way “not being allowed to wear” is the same as “being forced to wear”. It seems like you are defending the choice being taken from women under the mask of pretending to support the choice being given to them, by pointing to something not even being argued about as the covering mask, like a strawman.
If women were choosing to wear hijab with out the cultural, familial or state pressure you’d see women doing exactly that from other parts of the world where Islam isn’t enforcing it, you don’t see that because it’s not a free choice being made, acquiescing to pressure isn’t actually a choice.
Wherever you find Muslims in the world, you will find someone wearing hijab. If you punish women for wearing it, you are not better than those who punish them for not wearing it.
It’s extremely rare outside of countries that don’t enforce it, the Muslim women I know who still choose to wear hijab are from strict families. I have quite a few Muslim friends, most of whom are women, most of whom are not hijabis and don’t support the practice as public policy and find the pressure to wear it when they go home to be extremely uncomfortable. There’s a reason they feel that way, there’s a reason Muslim women who emigrate tend to stop wearing it, because they were pressured to do so it wasn’t a free choice. Is it 100% obviously no but frankly the exception proves the rule here
Do you think it’s possible that Muslim émigrés might feel social pressure in their new homes not to wear a hijab? I’ve heard quite a few women say they wear it for themselves as an expression of their faith. I can’t very well discount that possibility. Of course there are all sorts of social and familial pressures (and norms) that we all face. Many of which are largely taken for granted by those affected, even me and you!
With or without culture it is not your decision to make O Enlightened Savior!/s This thread is so full of poorly hidden sexist and racist nonsense that it is sickening. The western world is not the savior of the world, it is it’s oppressor, and the oppressor’s feigned concern while it eye’s those resources of the oppressed licking it’s lips, can only be inauthentic from such a position, clean your own house before trying to use the level of cleanness of someone else’s house as some kind of excuse.
It is a type of clothing that many women consciously choose and desire to wear. Some countries mandate it, but it is not much less rational than a mandate to cover chest and genitals in christian culture countries.
there are plenty of muslim countries that ban burkas/some of the other extreme coverings, all anyone in the west should need to know to support it
But what if… it is? It very much could be, just like nuns clothing.
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should safeguard muslim women in our own country?”
Crickets
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should go to war with Israel to protect muslim women?”
Crickets
“Who thinks we should go to war with muslim countries to protect their women?”
Hands raised
“Who thinks we should end sanctions so muslim women and their children don’t starve to death?”
Crickets
truth nuke
I highly doubt many hands would be raised.
But don’t you know that being against starving the muslims of Palestine is antisemitic!?
Israel has a right to
genocide, torture & rapeself-defence!
“I can’t go outside without wearing a head covering.”
“Head coverings are now illegal.”
“Now I can’t go outside.”
This makes the world more fair and equitable.
Here’s a wild idea, instead of making clothing illegal, why don’t we make coercing people into a manner of dress illegal?
I’m having difficulty parsing this. Are you saying “we should ban religions from coercive headgear” or “we shouldn’t ban clothing”? Cause those are contradictory positions and I’m not certain what you’re trying to say (which is probably entirely on me)
We shouldn’t ban clothing. We should ban the coercion of anyone to wear particular clothing.
There’s no contradiction here.
We shouldn’t police women’s clothing.
Ban anyone for coercing someone into or out of clothing.
Granted, I haven’t put a major amount of thought into the nuance, but the idea of making it a sin for some people to legally go outside is absurd.
The approach of these laws makes it so the victims of mistreatment are the ones breaking the law.
It’s like making it illegal to be homeless or illegal to have been mugged. It’s fucking outlandish.
Yeah, but that doesn’t really clarify, though. Does that mean that a woman could wear a hijab or burqa under your rule?
If they want to, yes.
My mother was undergoing some weird medical treatment that made her skin super sensitive to UV radiation. She was in full sleeves and a vest and gloves and a hat and facescarf and everything covered everywhere. I sincerely recommended to her a hijab or burqa because it would make going out easier. A couple main articles of clothing, maybe sunglasses and gloves, and she would be fine. Unfortunately the religious element of it put her off too much, but clothes are clothes.
Every woman has the choice to wear what she want, but the key is if she had a choice
VS
Womens rights is when literacy rate is 20%
Yeah ok.
Womens rights is when 19% child mortality rate
Oppression is when life expectancy go up
Something I notice about all these spaces. When I post facts about Islamic resistance, instead of people asking something “wow thats actually incredible, do you know how they did this incredible thing?” We end up stuck in a pattern of having literally the same conversations trying to explain basic concepts.
I know that I’m impressed when I see these statistics. Maybe thats because hijab made me stupid and oppressed 🤪 🫠
The reality of the Islamic resistance is so shrouded in mystery due to Islamophobia that it’s impossible for many to see their accomplishments as nothing more than a coincidence, which is ironically an anti-materialist way of viewing the world.
which is ironically an anti-materialist way of viewing the world.
Right. Couldn’t have said it better myself. The leadership of the resistance is way more rooted in real existing circumstances.
For example, one might ask about how the Islamic Revolution improved womens literacy so much in such a short period of time. Well, the leadership was aware that Iranian women of all ages and social/economic classes attended the mosque. So they set up womens reading programs in all the mosques, urban and rural. And women teachers were paid to run these programs for everyone from kids to grandmother’s. Seems pretty smart to me. Using the character of the masses as a way to promote social good rather than trying to mold them into whatever westernized ideation. Seems pretty rooted in materialism to me!
As you said though, such a thing gets shrouded in myth. The Iranians, the Palestinians, the Lebanese… portrayed as simultaneously magically resilient and well organized while also backwards in need of secularization. I dont have the words for this dualism but maybe you see what Im getting at.
I dont have the words for this dualism but maybe you see what Im getting at.
It reminds me of the noble savage trope, but perhaps there is a more apt comparison.
I was getting at it in the news mega thread where Shia Islam was discussed but until people take time to study the history of Islam at large, as well as of Shia specifically, it is impossible to have an accurate analysis of the resistance movement. Shia history has revolutionary sentiment built into the lineage, it reminds me a lot of Juche, with generations of revolutionaries passing down a revolutionary history long before marx was around to describe dialectical materialist analysis. The conditions demanded a revolutionary sentiment and a revolutionary analysis and that is within the DNA of the movement, continuing on into today. Repression has prevented Marxism from being as popular in the Ummah as it once was and will be again but revolutionary and liberatory sentiment within Islam predates Marxism and can be repressed but never removed.
Why compare with allied dictatorships with even worse reputation and not democracies?
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/life-expectancy?time=1974..latest&country=JPN~KOR~CHE~SWE~ISR~IRN
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/child-mortality?time=1994..latest&country=USA~SWE~FRA~IRN~RUS~JPN
“Democracies” and you put Japan, S Korea, and the zionist child-killing cancer on it.
Does Japan not have a functioning democracy? And what’s wrong with Korea?
You see, a democracy 😇 is when a country is operating as a forward military base for the US empire. 15 military bases and 55,000 US troops in Japan and 28,000 US troops in S Korea are just there to protect democracy 😇 from authoritarian China 😡 And DPRK 😡
And fake settler colony that has been committing genocide with US-made weapons since its invention is also very good democracy 😇
Anyways. Comparing health outcomes of countries that are economic beneficiaries of imperialist looting with a country under siege from imperialism is not making the point you think it is making.
Please take your zionism and leave.
If you’re going to say Iraq and Pakistan are dictatorships then you’d have to be an unashamed hypocrite to say Japan, functionality a one party state, isn’t.
This is framing of women in western clothing as more progressive vs women in hijab/chador is incredibly racist. It relies on Islamophobic stereotypes that play Islam as a less advanced civilization when compared to the rest. Please do not forget that the Iranian revolution that got rid of the shah was an internal, peoples revolution against a hostile empires marionette. The ayatollah was the synthesis of contradictions inherent to Iranian society and depicting current Iranian society as regressive compared to the Iranian society under the shah is effectively saying that westerners “know better” what the Iranian people need than the Iranian people themselves. This is racist. Whatever point you want to make against theocracy is lost in all the racist baggage that comes with the image.
Not discussing the racism part but the Iranian revolution was actually two-folds, like the Russian revolution. The first revolution was brought by a vast array of people, from islamists to communists. Many people hoped to keep their progressive way of life and to get political freedom on top if it. Way they got is a second revolution in the form of a swift consolidation of Khomeini’s power and a theocracy, with political assassinations and vice squads.
What ever problems the Iranians have is their own to figure out and solve unless they explicitly ask for help, and certainly not from Imperialist Liberals from the Global North playing white savior for the “poor, helpless, primitive SaVaGeS” in the form of more Western bombs dropping on their Childrens heads to “free” them (from this mortal coil) like you’re doing them a favor and should thank you for it. /s
Two pics mean nothing bro, do you think there are not women like in the picture above currently? And if that were the case, what do you think it happened in Iran during the '70’s that caused this “issue” when it comes to religion? ahh, yeah, it’s always the us empire.
It don’t change anything, in any case is there a difference if a woman has the chois to wear a jihab or is forced to wear one.
What is a jihab?
Did you know Reza Shah threw acid on women wearing the chador to force them to wear western clothing? You have no fucking idea what you are talking about
I know this case, but it also change nothing of what I said, the difference between having the option to wear what you want and being forced to wear what other want. In extremis like in the case which you mencioned, irrelevant if it is a chador, hijab or western clothes. if it is against what the women want.
The whole point is that it is a choice in Iran, it is not compulsory. Go to Iran right now and you will see women choosing not to cover their hair, walking around with the same fashion sense that you’d see in Venice Beach or NYC. There are women walking around in jean shorts and no head covering in Tehran every day without an issue.
Same energy lol https://youtu.be/gE2OzGfIDLQ
Zerush is very concerned about jihab and Muslamic ray guns 😔
i didnt understand what you tried to say
In the 1971 pic those on the top are bazaari, women of the rich merchant class who are the ones that paid to crush the student socialist rebellion and bring in the Ayatollah from Qom.
That thread was so ew
I’ll freely own the fact that I’m a western, white, woman and can never fully understand the cultural and greater context surrounding the choice as to why a Muslim woman, or a woman of any religion, creed, race, upbringing, etc would desire to wear a piece of clothing that would to me, with my cultural and greater context, be a symbol of my oppression.
The cool part is that I don’t have to understand why she would make such a choice, to support her right to make such a choice.
If you want to support womens rights, you can’t go around trying to restrict us. If you are concerned that women who are making these choices are doing so under indoctrination, coercion, etc, then instead channel your energy into making sure they, and all women, have safe places and resources to address those things.
Absolutely this, agree 100%
It’s also ew that they pretend advertising and propaganda to change minds of muslims wouldn’t work. It totally would. You just need a good campaign specifically targeted to the patriarchs and matriarchs to make more liberal attitudes to clothing fashionable. It would totally work.
And at the same time work against the influence spreading of Saudi Arabia pushing their extremist wahabism schools. That’s where they should use the hammer.
Everyone believes they’re choosing freely, especially when they’re choosing what their culture taught them to want.
That applies to literally everyone and doesn’t justify anything, men are no less or more immune, and the choice should be the one who is or would be wearing or not wearing a given piece of clothing on whether they do or don’t wear it. Neither men nor the state should be taking the agency for women to decide for themselves what to or to not wear.
At best this makes your comment unrelated, random, and pointless, as it says nothing. But we both know you are actually providing cover for the misogynist view that women shouldn’t be able to decide for themselves. It’s not exactly subtle, not even slightly, in fact it is infuriating. So please, look deep inside yourself, reflect, and STOP!
Yes you’re absolutely right, anyone of any gender should be able to wear or not wear what they want.
My point was more philosophical. It is indeed random and pointless, but I find it interesting to think of things like this. You may not find this interesting or read something misogynist into this, which was definitely far from what I meant so I’m sorry for offending you.
They are not deciding for themselves. That’s the point. Although banning is also not the solution either, I agree.
I generally wear what’s most comfortable for me. Sometimes I’ll “dress up” for stuff where it’s socially still “required” like job interviews or weddings, but even that is rare for me.
Yet you don’t wear 16th century Shakespearean clothes to work because you don’t live in 16th century England
please don’t talk like you know me
You must be at a boring workplace, we have several goths and one lady who daily wears renaissance era clothing and is big on renaissance fairs and medieval combat.
If it’s not a health and safety risk, who cares. I mean flip flops and a budgie smuggler are not appropriate to wear on a factory floor.
my favorite job, favorite boss, our dress code was “if you can get here without getting arrested it’s fine”. the day i showed up dressed like i was going to the beach (because guess what i was doing at noon) the boss came back and said “okay, new rule, if i have a client coming in you need to at least have pants and shoes on”
If they were available and comfortable, I might. Where the hell am i supposed to get them?
oh my friend! Evangeline’s (the costume store in Sacramento) just reopened! I can’t speak to comfortable but I can speak to where.
I live on the east coast, so I’ll just stick to the stuff I can get locally. It’s comfortable.
Edit: Thank you, though. If I ever find myself in Sacramento, I’ll have to look the place up
I actually had a few gowns in such a design. They were very fun to wear!
am i freely choosing to wear pants or just indoctrinated by the society i was raised in? if i moved somewhere they donald duck it would i assimilate or continue to wear pants?
i know suit guys who will dress up even if they’re not leaving the house and that’s real weird to me but it’s not muddied by being imposed on an axis of oppression or whatever.
Clothing (pants) is very much not natural and indeed only enforced by society. If one knows about various indigenous people around the world, one knows pants are not universal.
I actually, in this heat, would love not to have to wear pants or anything really. I’m naked at home all the time. However, if I went outside it’d be indecent.
Me, a hijabi, opening that thread for all of 10 seconds
I’m sure there will be well-balanced and nuanced discussion from the men of Lemmy on choice feminism and women’s oppression! I’m sure of it! /s
Last time I tried explaining (not defending) the hidjab ban in French public schools with a well balanced argumentation, my comment was deleted; so I won’t try anymore and we won’t have a discussion. I was expecting more from Lemmy
Last time I tried explaining why Jews had to wear a yellow star during the Holocaust with a well balanced argumentation, my comment was deleted; so I won’t try anymore and we won’t have a discussion. I was expecting more from Lemmy
You proved my point, no discussion
Well thanks for announcing to the class that you have an opinion that you refuse to share.
Wooo, that very first mod comment on your mod log is enough for me hahaha
reason: Bothsidesing genocide
Fucking yikes, dude
But it is a nuanced issue that requires consideration of multiple truths and sometimes contradicting world views.
Yes, something that the men of Lemmy are known for when it comes to discussing these types of issues. Notorious even.
Is the /s not a well known indicator of sarcasm?
we could expect more form our communities, but I know what you are saying
Oh believe me, I’m aware. I’m not the one to constantly disappoint on these topics, I’m just observing what happens here.
This topic would be much more interesting to discuss in a community with more diversity.
Don’t you know you’re oppressed! Please call me a white knight please!
there is such an amazing video by Lady Izdihar that would be extremely relevant but I can’t find it 😔
Lady Izdihar rules.
