Hello people, my family recently bought a Renault 5 e-tech. The car itself is great, but there are some aspects that creep me out, especially the driver-facing camera. We didn’t actually know that such a camera existed before we bought the car, it was only mentioned as the car was given to us.
The cameras official purpose is to see, if you are tired and paying attention to the road, by some “AI magic”, I suppose. You can also let it scan your face, so that you automatically get logged into your profile.
I personally think, that that is kinda creepy, especially as there is no visual indication if the camera is currently recording and no official way to disable the camera hardware-wise. When it is being coverd, the car immediately complains about it.
When talking to friends or family about it, I got one of two reactions: equal concern, or “nice feature actually”, “what about the camera on your laptop?”, “you are way too paranoid”, “I have noting to hide; it is only me driving being recorded”.
I have also seen such cameras in other cars, BYD for example.
What do you think, is this creepy or am I too paranoid? Does anyone know where the actual data is processed, on device or on some cloud server? Do you have any experience with such cameras? I couldn’t really find any information about it on the internet.
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The car complains when the camera is covered. At a minimum that means making annoying sounds every time you drive anywhere, at worst the car doesn’t let you drive. You can’t just dismiss this, it’s going to happen more and more, and they will be increasingly hostile to your workarounds.
So disconnect the speaker and the noise should stop
On some vehicles that’s the same speaker which makes the turn signal clicks and any kind of beeps or dings the car might make to alert that something’s wrong. I had that speaker go out on my vehicle not too long ago and it was actually harder to drive without being able to hear the turn signals and not getting the alert if i forgot to disengage the parking break (it seems to electronically disengage when you put it in drive so there’s no change in driving characteristics with this car when you drive with the parking break on)
Break the camera? Remove it? Scratch the lens?
THE CAR COMPLAINS WHEN THE CAMERA DOESN’T SEE YOUR FUCKING FACE FUCKNUT
In a few years, this might brick your car. Have fun paying to have it towed to the dealership. User-caused damage isn’t covered under warranty by the way.
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Why does everything have to suck so much…
Because the people making these laws aren’t handled appropriately.
- Camera
- Internet connectivity
- Proprietary software
No device should have more than two of these things.
No device should have the third, ever.
I have an offline dashcam and it’s fine. It does everything I need it to, and does nothing I don’t want it to. It can’t connect to the internet so it can’t spy on me if it wanted to.
Maybe there’s room for compromise, but there is absolutely zero reason to concede such things in advance. The baseline expectation is that every device should be running Free Software and fully respect its owner’s property rights, full stop.
If you instead approach the issue with the casual attitude that “oh, proprietary isn’t so bad if it doesn’t connect to the internet” the compromise after negotiations ends up favoring proprietary tyrants way more than you would’ve been okay with.
Love it, I’ll be stealing this comment thanks.
I don’t see why a vehicle needs to connect to the internet at all. Or have a screen whatsoever. I don’t understand why a car can’t just be a thing with a gear shift and a fucking steering wheel that drives from point A to point B
We’re being sold this idea of a car being like, a mobile family home or comfort space away from home. But the thing is, cars before 2015-ish were actually kinda comfy. Now they look and feel like robots. Kinda sickening. They all look so fucking ugly too every car is the same ugly round van/SUV shape now.
Can’t steal a Tesla. Once stolen, it cannot be used.
I mean, that’s great and all but I’ve never really had a problem with my cars being stolen more so with them becoming more expensive and less efficient not to mention ugly as sin, Tesla is a perfect example. Those cars look like corporate sanitation personified.
wherever there’s money to be made, capitalism will inevitably enshitify it and there’s A LOT of money to be had by cars with cameras and sensors that record your habits to report them to insurance industry to charge the maximum possible fees and to the police to keep track of your whereabouts.
making cars comfy and convenient (as well has making it the only viable means for travel) is the way people get lured into this mobile panopticon by choice and they pay for the privilege to do so.
I don’t see why a vehicle needs to connect to the internet at all.
Remote start (ICE) or remote starting heater (EV, ICE with Webasto) is a nice feature. Ability to check the status of your doors (are they locked), windows (maybe you left them open because it was hot and then the rain sensor didn’t close them), etc. All great features. Ability to track it is great if you have kids and let them drive, I guess - mine isn’t that old yet.
It would be much nicer if you could route all of that to your HA server instead of the manufacturer’s server though.
But the thing is, cars before 2015-ish were actually kinda comfy.
Is why I keep driving utterly depreciated formerly executive/luxury shitboxes! Okay, I had one 2019 Mercedes, best car I’ve ever owned, other than the privacy issues. But you can get 90% of the actual physical car features that car offered in a car manufactured before they started connecting 'em to the internet. Would only be missing the 9G-Tronic transmission and the super efficient engine that made it feel like I was driving for free.
Now my dream car is a 2010-2012 Range Rover (L322). First of the ones with the good 4.4 diesel engine and the extremely good ZF 8 speed transmission. Last of the ones with the sexy boxy body shape. Connectivity? GPS, radio, bluetooth (only for calls). No internet. Price? About 10-15k EUR for a decent one. Good luck finding a brand new car for less than 100k with the same comfort level and towing capacity. Maintenance costs? OK if you know how to wrench, literal bankruptcy material if you don’t.
Remote start (ICE) or remote starting heater (EV, ICE with Webasto) is a nice feature. Ability to check the status of your doors (are they locked), windows (maybe you left them open because it was hot and then the rain sensor didn’t close them), etc.
I can do all of this myself with my eyes and my hands, I live in a place where I don’t lock my car really ever unless I go to the big cities. Like I detest the idea of having an app for my car to tell me the automatic window thing you’re talking about didn’t do it. I am perfectly capable of doing that myself with my own 2 hands, I’ve forgotten before in the rain and it hasn’t ever been so big of a deal that I’d opt for a feature to do that for me, it’s the definition of unnecessary. Remote start seems nice especially in the brutal winters but I’ve never had it before and I’ve never had any problems waking up before sunrise in below 0 weather to start my car other than battery issues. I also don’t see why remote start and heated seats would require internet or an app whatsoever.
It would be much nicer if you could route all of that to your HA server instead of the manufacturer’s server though.
I literally have no idea what this means and zero interest in learning anything more about software or hardware, I do admit that’s probably kindof ignorant of me but I also do not like “computer stuff” like that, I have an iPhone because I want it to 100% simple as possible like I’m a boomer.
I just want a god damn car I can start with my hands and drive where I need to go safely and efficiently. That’s it. I don’t understand why people enjoy having so many more unnecessary bells and whistles.
Good for you then. Where I live, it can be 35 degrees and sunshine and then suddenly torrential rain half an hour later. You’d want to be able to make sure the window is closed when it starts raining. How do you do that if you can’t get to the car at the moment?
0 degree weather doesn’t really warrant pre-heating your car either. Try running out the moment you wake up in nothing but a t-shirt and maybe pants when it’s -30 or colder to get the car. Bonus points if you live on the 5th floor and have to run down, then up to go have breakfast and then back down. Then tell me you see no value in being able to do this remotely.
Though if you use an iPhone, I don’t really see why you care about having a non-connected car anyway. Your phone already reports where you are at all times.
Try running out the moment you wake up in nothing but a t-shirt and maybe pants when it’s -30 or colder to get the car.
lol. I own winter coats for a reason… You throw that on instead of a t shirt in -30 mornings. We get those here too. Just going out in a t shirt is your own fault. I would also never work somewhere I couldn’t run outside quick to roll up my windows. I always work labor so I’ve never ever been told I’d have to just sit inside if I knew my car was being rained on. These problems aren’t real problems being solved they’re laziness. Telling me you don’t take the time to put a coat on in the winter is fucking insane no wonder you need your car to connect to WiFi and track you!
I don’t care about my phone tracking me tbh.
I care about it being easy and efficient to use, that’s my whole point about cars.
I’m not going to bother getting dressed just to go start the car lol. I own a winter coat too, I rarely use it because I don’t need it when it’s warmer than about -30. I go out in my shorts and t-shirt and then get dressed when it’s actually time to leave.
Anyway, all of these things make using your car easier and more efficient. Not having to spend extra time doing things manually. But like I said, if you don’t care about your phone tracking you, why give a shit about the car? It has far less data, it can’t even access your bank accounts or email.
I bet you don’t drive a car with manually adjustable valves either. Why? Are you lazy? Or is it that technology takes care of things you don’t want to spend time doing? Matter of fact, why not walk or cycle to work? It’s all laziness in the end.
There’s a certain level of laziness that I am willing to sacrifice for comfort/efficency, and then there’s the level of work that I enjoy putting in to my daily routine. Now I’m just worried for you as a fellow winter enjoyer… put on a coat and some gloves dude! You can get frostbite! It is 100% worth it, you already have to put on atleast underwear (you owe that to your neighbors if they can see you like mine could) and shoes! Please don’t tell me you skip putting on shoes too…
As far as the data thing goes I would be willfully ignorant if the cars actually reflected what I wanted to do with them, if that makes sense. I don’t need it to connect to an app on my phone because that personally annoys me, that’s kinda it. Same with driver facing cameras, fancy screens that are distracting, etc, it’s mostly that they personally annoy me and I don’t personally like the features and I wish there were options to have a simple car with a simple, physical interface.
Destroy the ccd with a high powered laser pointer
Need to be smashing them. Call up the dealer and scream at them. Do not buy new cars.
Still can’t believe we allowed this to happen. Well, I’ll be repairing old cars till I die I guess.
Monthly subscription for safety features coming soon 🔜
Disassemble that fucking thing. Why do people tolerate this kind of shit?
I’m guessing there’s a microphone as well? Most cars have then now.
Yes, the infotainment system even shows is as being constantly used, which I could disable by going through the android app list (infotainment is based on android) and disabling the built-in AI assistant
And this is why I have 2 cars from the 80’s that I refuse to give up. They’re nearly 100% mechanical, carburated and with almost no necessary fuzes to run the two.
Some of these dorks out here would fr be supportive of a “smart” camera in thdr toilet looking straight at their hole/s. “I have nothing to hide, its just videos of me pooping”
When the hole is opening an algorithm decides if its a fart/diarrhea/shit and adds the right amount of water to the bowl. Also the right amount of toilet paper rolls out.
When your session is over it ejects you from the toilet so we have maximum toiletefficiency.
People will call it toiletmaxxing.
I pictured it more like the system Rick had where it just analyzes his stool for abnormalities but that is way more accurate. And by the “correct” amount of tp, way too much, because its made by charmin
Put a sticker over it
The car complains, when I do that. Maybe there is some way around that, but I haven’t found one
Return the car. Complain to the dealership that the car complains when you cover the camera.
In my fantasy world, every single person who buys one does exactly that.
Then the car co either goes tits up, or it stops loading the vehicle full of spyware.
Same for smart TVs.
Maybe you could rig up something to have a small picture of yourself a few inches away from it
Haha, great idea
It depends. IIRC some laptops that come with face unlock feature use dual IR cameras to confirm the face is not a flat picture with a bonus of being indifferent to darkness. They need a staring minifig!
It is very creepy. Especially if there is no official way to disable the camera, so that it does not complain about the camera being disabled.
Fucking hell.
I’ll be sticking with 2015 and older for as long as I can.
Fatigue detection is a real thing that doesn’t use the type of AI that people think of when they hear that word today most often. It’s not language based but instead it’s able to recognize faces and posture, tell where your attention is focused, and recognize signs of fatigue like head drop, eyes closing, and attention drifting from the road.
It, along with other attention based driver safety features, are real and effective and can be done on device with a computer with less power than a modern cellphone.It is, however, at least a little creepy. It’s made a lot more so by it not being disclosed upfront with disclosures and full user awareness. It should be explained by both the website, the car manual, the salesperson and the car itself exactly what it’s doing and where any video data is being sent. It’s probably processing the video locally and at most sending telemetry about which driver just sat down and such, but 1) you might not want that 2) unless they actually tell you that you don’t know.
It’s not paranoia to want an explanation and appropriate assurances, or for it to be in your control. You don’t need to assume it’s the worst case for that to be true. It’s probably a real safety feature with a couple of quality of life features taped on so people can see it do something, since you don’t really see a passive safety feature. But without actual communication you don’t actually know that.
I see the safety benefits of having this, and I would appreciate knowing that the car would blast a loud sound every time my eyes shut off from sleepiness so it will never happen, but this must be 100% open source no exceptions so it can be verified that it doesn’t spy on you.
Yeah, I can see the safety benefits but I’m honestly not sure how I would feel about it. My current car has a variant but the camera is mounted on the outside, and it notices lane drift and changes in responsiveness to curves. It’s basically an extension of the collision/lane centering/automatic windshield wiper (weirdly) systems.
I’m okay with that because it’s not looking at me, but at the road, which I expect the car to do. Even if it was verified to not be sending anything anywhere I can honestly say I’m still very unsure about just being passively on camera like that.
don’t need to assume it’s the worst case
We are all assuming the worst case because it’s most likely based on historical data. There is no way to justify this while ignoring other actual safety issues like headlights. Pretty sure not being blind while driving is an actual issue, but since it doesn’t rape privacy and civil rights, they’ll just ignore that.
You’re literally quoting a part of a sentence to seemingly disagree with. Specifically a sentence that’s saying that you don’t need to believe it’s nefarious for it to be reasonable to want privacy and assurances of privacy.
They seemed on the fence about if they were being paranoid or if they were justified in feeling concerned and it was as bad as it seemed.
I’m saying it doesn’t matter what you believe their intentions are, it’s not paranoid to have concerns about the camera in your face. You can short circuit questions about the technology or their reputation and go directly to resolving that discomfort however is most suitable to you.
Thank you for the excellent response!
There are at least two cars owned by members of my family that I am aware of that have a fatigue detection, and neither of them use cameras. So I’m firmly in the creepy camp.
That’s pretty fair. I know the cameras can be more effective, particularly in situations where the driver may be using lane centering or something, but I’m not sure I could be fully comfortable regardless.
I mean I would like a dashcam that records front, my face and out the rear window. But it has to be under MY control.
I’d never buy a car with a camera I can’t control. No doubt they’ll soon turn it into some subscription shit or spy on you.
I do find this attitude interesting. You don’t want yourself to be recorded, but you’ll happily record random pedestrians without their knowledge or consent.
So in my country it’s pretty “limited” because of that. You’re allowed to use a dash-cam as long as it doesn’t permanently record. ONLY if there is a crash or a crime you may press the “record and keep the last X minutes” button. I mean that is how most dash-cams function anyway. And you can’t publicly share it without consent of people you filmed or blur their faces and tags. So a legal framework already exists that protects citizens privacy while still allowing to collect video evidence.
Hmm… of course next step would need to be to have dashcams that have a sensors that encrypt and authenticate the video using a random key, to have a higher confidence that you haven’t generated AI footage showing the other person at fault.
Ehm, what do you mean by soon?
All if this is why my next car with be from the pre-computer era
Late 90s to early 2000s was peak car. All downhill after that. Like everything really.
So your next car will be from 1940 or older?
Computers didn’t make their way into cars until the late 70’s, my next car will predate that.
I’m still driving a 2001. Lol.
