Thought leaders spent the last couple of decades propaganding that features-per-week is the only metric to optimize, and that if your software has any bit of efficiency or quality in it that’s a clear indicator for a lost opportunity to sacrifice it on the alter of code churning.
The result is not “amazing”. I’d be more amazed had it turned out differently.
Fucking “features”. Can’t software just be finished? I bought App. App does exactly what I need it to do. Leave. It. Alone.
No, never! Tech corps (both devs and app stores) brainwashed people into thinking “no updates = bad”.
Recently, I have seen people complain about lack of updates for: OS for a handheld emulation device (not the emulator, the OS, which does not have any glaring issues), and Gemini protocol browser (gemini protocol is simple and has not changed since 2019 or so).
Maybe these people don’t use the calculator app because arithmetic was not updated in a few thousand years.
A big part of this issue is mobile OS APIs. You can’t just finish an android app and be done. It gets bit rot so fast. You get maybe 1-2 years with no updates before “this app was built for an older version of android” then “this app is not compatible with your device”.
arithmetic was not updated in a few thousand years.
Oh boy, don’t let a mathematician hear this.
“More AI features”? Of course we can implement more AI features for yo.
It’s kind of funny how eagerly we programmers criticize “premature optimization”, when often optimization is not premature at all but truly necessary. A related problem is that programmers often have top-of-the-line gear, so code that works acceptably well on their equipment is hideously slow when running on normal people’s machines. When I was managing my team, I would encourage people to develop on out-of-date devices (or at least test their code out on them once in a while).
Premature optimisation often makes things slower rather than faster. E.g. if something’s written to have the theoretical optimal Big O complexity class, that might only break even around a million elements, and be significantly slower for a hundred elements where everything fits in L1 and the simplest implemention possible is fine. If you don’t know the kind of situations the implementation will be used in yet, you can’t know whether the optimisation is really an optimisation. If it’s only used a few times on a few elements, then it doesn’t matter either way, but if it’s used loads but only ever on a small dataset, it can make things much worse.
Also, it’s common that the things that end up being slow in software are things the developer didn’t expect to be slow (otherwise they’d have been careful to avoid them). Premature optimisation will only ever affect the things a developer expects to be slow.
It’s kind of funny how eagerly we programmers criticize “premature optimization”, when often optimization is not premature at all but truly necessary.
I will forever be salty about that one time I blamed of premature optimization for pushing to optimize a code that was allocating memory faster than the GC could free it, which was causing one of the production servers to keep getting OOM crashes.
If urgent emails from one of the big clients who put the entire company into emergency mode during a holiday is still considered “premature”, then no optimization is ever going to be mature.
Optomisation often has a cost, weather it’s code complexity, maintenance or even just salary. So it has to be worth it, and there are many areas where it isn’t enough unfortunately.
Exactly the mindset responsible for the state of modern software.
And that lazy mentality just passes the cost to the consumer.
How is that mindset lazy? Unhappy customers also have a cost! At my last job the customer just always bought hardware specifically for the software as a matter of process, partly because the price of the hardware compared to the price of the software was negligible. You literally couldn’t make a customer care.
In industrial software, I’m sure performance is a pretty stark line between “good enough” and “costing us money”.
The pattern I’ve seen in customer facing software is a software backend will depend on some external service (e.g. postgres), then blame any slowness (and even stability issues…) on that other service. Each time I’ve been able to dig into a case like this, the developer has been lazy, not understanding how the external service works, or how to use it efficiently. For example, a coworker told me our postgres system was overloaded, because his select queries were taking too long, and he had already created indexes. When I examined his query, it wasn’t able to use any of the indexes he created, and it was querying without appropriate statistics, so it always did a full table scan. All but 2 of the indexes he made were unused, so I deleted those, then added a suitable extended statistics object, and an index his query could use. That made the query run thousands of times faster, sped up writes, and saved disk space.
Most of the optimization I see is in algorithms, and most of the slowness I see is fundamentally misunderstanding what a program does and/or how a computer works.
Slowness makes customers unhappy too, but with no solid line between “I have what I want” and “this product is inadequate”.
How is that mindset lazy?
Are you really asking how it’s lazy to pass unoptimized code to a customer and make their hardware do all the work for you because optimization was too costly?? Like I get that you are in an Enterprise space, but this mentality is very prevalent and is why computers from today don’t feel that much faster software wise than they did 10 years ago. The faster hardware gets, the lazier devs can be because why optimize when they’ve got all those cycles and RAM available?
And this isn’t a different at you, that’s software development in general, and I don’t see it getting any better.
It’s not just software development, it’s everywhere. Devices are cheap, people are expensive. So it’s not lazy, he’s being asked to put his expensive time into efforts the customer actually wants to pay for. If having him optimize the code further costs way more than buying a better computer, it doesn’t make sense economically for him to waste his time on that.
Is that yet another example of how the economy has strange incentives? For sure, but that doesn’t make him lazy.
I never called them lazy, I stated that the mentality is lazy, which it is. Whether or not that laziness is profit driven, it still comes down to not wanting to put forth the effort to make a product that runs better.
Systemic laziness as profit generation is still laziness. We’re just excusing it with cost and shit, and if everyone is lazy, then no one is.
If cost is a justification for this kind of laziness, it also justifies slop code development. After all, it’s cheaper that way, right?
Your spelling is terrible
Oops, forgot the AI step
Bro just denied bro’s lemmy comment pull request
Had to install (an old mind you, 2019) visual studio on windows…
…
…
First it’s like 30GB, what the hell?? It’s an advanced text editor with a compiler and some …
Crashed a little less than what I remember 🥴😁
First it’s like 30GB, what the hell??
Just be grateful it’s SSD and not RAM.
Visual Studio is the IDE. VS Code is the text editor.
OP was clearly using a rhetorical reduction to make a point that VS is bloated.
Visual code is another project, visual studio is indeed an IDE but it integrates it all. Vscode is also an integrated development environment. I don’t really know what more to say.
VS Code is considered a highly extensible text editor that can be used as an IDE, especially for web based tools, but it isnt an IDE. It’s more comparable to Neovim or Emacs than to IntelliJ in terms of the role it’s supposed to fill. Technically. VS Code definitely is used more as an IDE by most people, and those people are weak imo. I’m not one to shill for companies (i promise this isnt astroturf) but if you need to write code Jetbrains probably has the best IDE for that language. Not always true but moee often than not it is imo.
Ooh, a flame war 🔥🔥🔥 ! It has been so long since I was involved in one, thank you 🙋🏻♀️! 😊
Who uses visual code to something else than writing and launching vode? I only uses it for C#/Godot on Linux but it has all the bells and whistles to make it an IDE IMO (BTW anyone who doesn’t code in C/C++ is weak ofc ☺️! 🔥).
Let me just add that jetbrains (at least pycharm) have started their enshittification death cycle, and I’m looking for a lightweight python IDE that doesn’t hallucinate (but lets you use venm and debug), if you have any ideas I’m listening!
Cheers
I wanna clarify that when i say VS Code I’m talking about Visual Studio Code. I was only commenting on the difference between Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code because you said you downloaded Visual Studio and was confused why a text editor was 30gb, and it’s possible you downloaded the IDE rather than the text editor. I apologize if you thought i was talking about Visual Code; I wasn’t.
And i agree that JetBrains has started to enshittify but I also think their enshittification has been pretty slow because they sell professional tools that still have to perform the basic functionality of an IDE. And for the modt part I’ve been able to disable all AI features save the ones I’m required to use at work (yay AI usage metrics ;-;)
For data science, Spyder is good. Otherwise I also use pyzo as a lightweight IDE.
Windows 11 is the slowest Windows I’ve ever used, by far. Why do I have to wait 15-45 seconds to see my folders when I open explorer? If you have a slow or intermittent Internet connection it’s literally unusable.
The Windows bloat each new generation is way out of control.
Even Windows 10 is literally unusable for me. When pressing the windows key it literally takes about 4 seconds until the search pops up, just for it to be literally garbage.
Found out about this while watching “Halt and Catch Fire” (AMC’s effort to recreate the magic of Mad Men, but on the computer).
In 1982 Walter J. Doherty and Ahrvind J. Thadani published, in the IBM Systems Journal, a research paper that set the requirement for computer response time to be 400 milliseconds, not 2,000 (2 seconds) which had been the previous standard. When a human being’s command was executed and returned an answer in under 400 milliseconds, it was deemed to exceed the Doherty threshold, and use of such applications were deemed to be “addicting” to users.
if it only occurs hours or days after boot, try killing the startmenuexperiencehost process. that’s what I was doing until I switched to linux
I am using windows like once a week at maximum and then it only takes about 10 minutes. So I kind of do not really care and am glad, that I do not need to use it more often.
Probably that’s the folder explorer or whatever itself crashing.
yeah
and like why does it crash? it worked fine on Windows 10
I’ve given up trying to understand modern PC software. I can barely keep up with the little microcontrollers I work with. They aren’t so little.
It takes forever to boot I know that and that’s from fast food which is extra pathetic.
fast food
Too many nuggies
Maybe if Windows quit pigging out on tendies and slimmed down it would be as baf
You do really feel this when you’re using old hardware.
I have an iPad that’s maybe a decade old at this point. I’m using it for the exact same things I was a decade ago, except that I can barely use the web browser. I don’t know if it’s the browser or the pages or both, but most web sites are unbearably slow, and some simply don’t work, javascript hangs and some elements simply never load. The device is too old to get OS updates, which means I can’t update some of the apps. But, that’s a good thing because those old apps are still very responsive. The apps I can update are getting slower and slower all the time.
It’s the pages. It’s all the JavaScript. And especially the HTML5 stuff. The amount of code that is executed in a webpage these days is staggering. And JS isn’t exactly a computationally modest language.
Of the 200kB loaded on a typical Wikipedia page, about 85kb of it is JS and CSS.
Another 45kB for a single SVG, which in complex cases is a computationally nontrivial image format.
I don’t agree. It’s both. I’ve opened basic no JS sites on old tablets to test them out and even those pages BARELY load
What caused the latency in that case?
Probably just the browser itself, considering how bloated they’re getting. It’s not super surprising, considering the apps run about as fast (on a good day) as it did 5-10 years ago on a new phone, it’s gonna run like dogshit on a phone from that era.
I can’t update YouTube on my iPad 2 that I got running again for the first time in years. It said it had been 70,000~ hours since last full charge. I wanted to use it to watch videos on when I’m going to bed. But I can’t actually login to YouTube because the app is so old and I seemingly can’t update it.
I was using the web browser and yeah I don’t remember it being so damn slow. It’s crazy how that is.
Computer speed feels about the same as it was years ago.
A decade? Try 25 years
They often are worse, because everything needed to be an electron app, so they could hire the cheaper web developers for it, and also can boast about “instant cross platform support” even if they don’t release Linux versions.
Qt and GTK could do cross platform support, but not data collection, for big data purposes.
I don’t know why electron has to use so much memory up though. It seems to use however much RAM is currently available when it boots, the more RAM system has the more electron seems to think it needs.
Ib4 “uNusEd RAm iS wAStEd RaM!”
No, unused RAM keeps my PC running fast. I remember the days where accidentally hitting the windows key while in a game meant waiting a minute for it to swap the desktop pages in, only to have to swap the game pages back when you immediately click back into it, expecting it to either crash your computer or probably disconnect from whatever server you were connected to. Fuck that shit.
I mean unused RAM is still wasted: You’d want all the things cached in RAM already so they’re ready to go.
I mean I have access to a computer with a terabyte of RAM I’m gonna go ahead and say that most applications aren’t going to need that much and if they use that much I’m gonna be cross.
Wellll
If you have a terabyte of RAM sitting around doing literally nothing, it’s kinda being wasted. If you’re actually using it for whatever application can make good use of it, which I’m assuming is some heavy-duty scientific computation or running full size AI models or something, then it’s no longer being wasted.
And yes if your calculator uses the entire terabyte, that’s also memory being wasted obviously.
I don’t want my PC wasting resources trying to guess every possible next action I might take. Even I don’t know for sure what games I’ll play tonight.
Well you’d want your OS to cache the start menu in the scenario you highlighted above. The game could also run better if it can cache assets not currently in use instead of waiting for the last moment to load them. Etc.
Yeah, for things that will likely be used, caching is good. I just have a problem with the “memory is free, so find more stuff to cache to fill it” or “we have gigabytes of RAM so it doesn’t matter how memory-efficient any program I write is”.
“memory is free, so find more stuff to cache to fill it”
As long as it’s being used responsibly and freed when necessary, I don’t have a problem with this
“we have gigabytes of RAM so it doesn’t matter how memory-efficient any program I write is”
On anything running on the end user’s hardware, this I DO have a problem with.
I have no problem with a simple backend REST API being built on Spring Boot and requiring a damn gigabyte just to provide a /status endpoint or whatever. Because it runs on one or a few machines, controlled by the company developing it usually.
When a simple desktop application uses over a gigabyte because of shitty UI frameworks being used, I start having a problem with it, because that’s a gigabyte used per every single end user, and end users are more numerous than servers AND they expect their devices to do multiple things, rather than running just one application.
Chromium is basically Tyrone Biggums asking if y’all got any more of that RAM, so bundling that into Electron is gonna lead to the same behavior.
There’s no difference whatsoever between qt or gtk and electron for data collection. You can add networking to your application in any of those frameworks.
The problem is not so much badly written programs and websites in terms of algorithms, but rather latency. The latency of loading things from storage, sometimes through the internet is the real bottleneck and why things feel so slow.
even with mothern ssds, things sometimes feel slower than what they were with hdds with time accurate software, windows 7 was snappy even on a hdd, windows 11 is slow and sluggish everywhere
The modern web is an insult to the idea of efficiency at practically every level.
You cannot convince me that isolation and sandboxing requires a fat 4Gb slice of RAM for a measly 4 tabs.
Can’t wait for the new evidence that Epstein is behind that too.
Actshually it’s bandwidth censorship if you make something too heavy to be used then it won’t get used. It is one of the things China is doing to separate their internet from the rest of the worlds, by having an internet so blazingly fast it is unbearable to goto the world wide web.
So yesh, the epstien class are making the news too slow for typical users to access.
china is making webpages that are less than 20 megabytes…but at what cost?
It is crazy that I can have a core 2 duo with 8 gig of RAM that struggles loading web pages
I hate that our expectations have been lowered.
2016: “oh, that app crashed?? Pick a different one!”
2026: “oh, that app crashed again? They all crash, just start it again and cross your toes.”
I’m starting to develop a conspiracy theory that MS is trying to make the desktop experience so terrible that everyone switches to mobile devices, such that they can be more easily spied on.
That would be incredibly ironic given that they completely fucking gave up on mobile devices when the iPhone came out.
Windows Phone was around in mid-2010s, at least 7 years after iPhone release. But it was not hyped enough: companies did not care to develop apps for it, customers didn’t want a smartphone without X Y Z apps (same argument i see now about mobile linux or even custom ROMs). The phones had nice and fast UI though, and some had very good cameras.
Windows Phone was great. I’d done Windows Mobile since 2005 and it was nice to be able to continue developing with C#/.NET and Visual Studio (back when it was still good) in a more modern OS. One thing that really spoiled me permanently was being able to compile, build and deploy the app I was working on to my test device effectively instantaneously – like, by the time I’d moved my hand over to the device, the app was already up and running. Then I switched to iOS where the same process could take minutes, also Blackberry where it might take half an hour or never happen at all.
Funny thing: RIM was going around circa 2010/2011 offering companies cash bounties of $10K to $20K to develop apps for Blackberry, since they were dying a rapid death but were still flush with cash. Nobody that I know of took them up on the offers. I tried to get my company to make a Windows Phone version of our software but I was laughed at (and deservedly so).
why do anime girls have to be right all the time?
To prevent fictionalist comments in replies.
They are all actually the start of an incredibly complex dojinshi.
I sure hope the tags are wholesom… OH NO.
On Linux it really is noticeable
Two possible and opposite interpretations of your comment:
- Modern Linux feels exactly as responsive or worse on modern hardware than old Linux used to feel on old hardware.
- Linux feels much more responsive and fast on modern hardware than it does on old hardware, unlinke other OSes.
Well, until you open a browser… or five, because these days nobody wants to build native applications anymore and instead they shove webapps into electron containers.
Right now, my laptop doesn’t have to run much. Just a combination of KDE, browser, emails, music player, a couple of messengers and some background services. In total, that uses about 9.5 GB of RAM. 20 years ago we would have run the same workload with less than 1 GB.
I recently had occasion to run a headless Linux distrk and got my socks knowcked off when I ran top and saw idle RAM use at fucking 400 MB
Yeah, discotd is eating 1.5gb of ram. Actually crazy
whomst is jeavon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
Whenever efficiency increases consumption increases. Better steam engines mean more coal consumption. Faster cheaper RAM means more RAM consumption.
That’s not “programmer_humor”, that’s an absolute fact. Had to go on an ancient laptop here for an old lost file recently, it was WAY faster than a new ultra speedy decked out recent build Win12 machine. WTAF??
When you become one with the penguin, though … then you can begin to feel how much faster modern hardware is.
Hell, I’ve got a 2016 budget-model chromebook that still feels quick and snappy that way.
Sadly, it is not how it is for me. I’ve never (in last 20 years) experienced freezes that bad and that frequent as with my new beefy Linux PC.
But… 2016 was a decade ago. If it feels quick and snappy that way that means the post is right.
Which it kinda isn’t but hey.
the point is the software is what’s wrong, not the hardware. it feels snappy because it’s linux, not because it’s hold hardware.
Except the Linux userbase has been saying that exact thing for the past ten years, so again, has Linux also degraded in sync or, hear me out here, is this mostly a nostalgia thing that makes you forget the cludgy performance issues of the software you used when you were younger and things have mostly gotten snappier over time across the board?
As a current dual booter I’ll say that Windows and Linux don’t feel fundamentally different these days, for good and ill. Windows has a remarkably crappy and entirely self-inflicted issue with their online-search-in-Start-menu feature, which sucks but is toggleable at least. Otherwise I have KDE and Win11 set up the same way and they both work pretty much the same. And both measurably better than their respective iterations 10, let alone 15 or 20 years ago.
Windows and Linux don’t feel fundamentally different these days
Try Windows 11 vs. Linux on a shitty old laptop with a budget 2-core processor and 2GB of RAM. Then tell me Windows and Linux don’t feel any different.
My bf bought me a brand new laptop with Win 10 preinstalled, and even after disabling or uninstalling as much as I could, it was literally like watching a slideshow. Then I installed Linux, and it…worked like you’d expect a brand new computer to work, fast and smooth. Never used Win 11 because I stopped using Windows after that.
I’ve got a 2007 laptop that was shitty even for its time, and it does the job perfectly as a home server with Debian and a few good open source services I want to host
