With very few exceptions this reads like bot farms fighting with themself
Are people here pro Russia taking over Ukraine here?
Honest question from a non-communist, based on your reply here. Does one need to support Putin to be a Marxist?
In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.
Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript
- Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia.
- Internationalist 360°, 2022–2024: History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
NATO expansion:
- George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner
- Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia
- Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
- Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine
NATO in general:- The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World
- CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance
- Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world”
- Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism
- Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
No
Marxists tend to critically support Russia over Ukraine here. Russia doesn’t want to “take over Ukraine,” it wants the 4 oblasts and Ukraine to be demillitarized. Donetsk and Luhansk both have been at war with Kiev since 2014 and voted to join the Russian Federation, and the far-right Banderites that siezed power in the 2014 Euromaidan coup have been heavily millitarizing and oppressing ethnic Russians. Ukraine serves a similar geopolitical purpose for the US Empire as Israel, it’s a heavily millitarized anti-communist country surroundrd by geopolitical adversaries.
There’s a lot of problems with your reply.
You can’t say Russia doesn’t want to control Ukraine and reconcile that with the fact that Russia previously had puppets controlling Ukraine.
You can’t seriously believe that Russia holds fair elections.
ETA: if the conflict was just about protecting supposedly majority Russian areas on the Russian border, I would expect Russia to have intervened directly in those areas to “liberate” them, like we saw in Crimea (which is also dubiously majority Russian). But what we’re actually seeing is an imperialist cassis belli that’s contradicted by the fact that it’s mostly Ukrainians themselves fighting, even if armed by allies.
Yanukovych was not a puppet. The IMF loan came with stipulations requiring austerity, the Russian loan did not. Secondly, Russia is intervening directly in the Donbass region. It isn’t dubious at all that Crimea and the Donbass are heavily Russian, they were added to Ukraine only a century ago.
Not a puppet? Spare me. Where is he right now? What a coincidence!
Did you intentionally misunderstand what I said? They could have just taken the territories they wanted that were supposedly majority Russian and left it at that…the west wouldn’t have done shit about it. But they didn’t, did they?
They are taking historically Russian areas like Donetsk and Luhansk. The west is doing what it wants because it’s using Ukraine as a proxy war to damage Russia, and is carving Ukraine out for resources. Yanukovych escaping the far-right Banderites that the west supported doesn’t mean he was a puppet either. You’re deeply confused here.
Imagine being so communist and/or anti-American that you can’t criticize a fascist capitalist state over a liberal capitalist state.
You’re too smart to make the argument that Russia’s actions are restricted to the areas they allege are majority Russian.
Kiev is run by far-right neo-Nazis that uphold Stepan Bandera. The Russian Federation isn’t socialist by any means, but it isn’t run by literal neo-Nazis and it isn’t ethnically cleansing anyone.
Imagine being so communist and/or anti-American that you can’t criticize a fascist capitalist state over a liberal capitalist state.
They’re right, cry about it
Not a puppet? Spare me.
Faith based politics
that’s contradicted by the fact that it’s mostly Ukrainians themselves fighting, even if armed by allies.
Which Ukrainians?
- The oligarchs running the state?
- The Banderite fascists?
- The eastern & southern Ukrainians, who, after the Maidan coup, declared independence from an unelected government, and were subsequently terrorized by the Banderites for nearly a decade, with tacit and overt support from the Ukrainian and US governments?
- The western Ukrainians who want the war to end?
- The men being kidnapped off the streets and pushed to the front lines against their will?
Previously: If not for the US/NATO, this war wouldn’t have happened in the first place.Can’t tell if you’re talking about the Russians or the Ukrainians.
My argument isn’t so much that Ukraine is good…it’s that Russia is worse.
Worse for whom?
For the world. Giant repressive capitalist dictatorships that are full of fascists and invade other countries aren’t good for anybody…even if some of the people they’re killing are also fascists.
For the world.
If by the world you mean the imperial core, then yes.
Giant repressive capitalist dictatorship
You mean the United States?
full of fascists
I don’t think you understand fascism. Previously:
Yes it’s a proxy war. Doesn’t mean you should go around “liberating” your neighbors by folding them into your own territory.
Sorry…I know exactly what you mean, but I’m going to nitpick over the use of the term “proxy war”. It’s not a proxy war, first because Russia is directly involved and second because the USA isn’t the only proxy. Good examples of Proxy Wars are The Spanish and Syrian Civil Wars…as well as many minor conflicts during The Cold War that were revealed to be indirectly USSR v USA
I don’t know how you feel about the war at large…but calling it a proxy war could be considered a Russia friendly narrative because it removes Ukraines agency and purpose.
In a proxy war the support is generally obfuscated, and the conflict is usually internal. In Ukraine the support is open and the conflict is an invasion.
This “meme” pretends to be nuanced…but it’s simple: it attempts to boil the crisis down to “America bad”.
Russia has agency. If you’re a leftist who supports Russia…and I know it’s common…you’ve completely lost the plot. You’re basically so anti American that you’ve overshot the mark and are supporting other fascists.
At risk of also oversimplifying things: Russia/Ukraine isn’t good v bad…it’s fascist capitalist v “liberal” capitalist.
Your mind is like a puddle
it’s fascist capitalist v “liberal” capitalist
This is correct but probably opposite of how you think it is.
Oh?
I’m anti America and anti Russia. I’m not pretending I’m some expert on geopolitics…but I do know that Russia is a fascist capitalist state and they’re not the good guys, even if many of the Ukrainians and their supporters are bad.
There is a historical materialist thread from Project Aerodynamic and Banderite Mykola Lebed to Victoria Nuland determining the leadership after the 2014 coup.
Replace “America” with “voluntary coalition of countries and individuals who promote freedom and justice and wish to build and maintain a world of international laws and norms”
In a completely unrelated public service announcement: Watch out for mouthpieces for manufactured grievances and loyal echoers of other’s lies.
https://discuss.tchncs.de/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=798981 for those curious.
Rule 1 is “be civil and and nice”. boggles
It is an instance and community’s right to censor and ban as they wish, but rule 1 should perhaps be changed to “I don’t like the cut of your jib” 🙈
While I was trying to make a particular point in the original response, I should have still rebuffed the core lie in it (the suggestion that russia is a victim): Russia attacked first, and it has escalated first, and it can stop the war at any time. All responses to russia’s aggression are expected and justified.
Involuntary coalition of countries who promote oppression and injustice and wish to maintain a world of white supremacy and bourgeois rule
Aka the “burgerland empire”
“voluntary coalition of countries and individuals who promote freedom and justice and wish to build and maintain a world of international laws and norms”
This propaganda was obviously always bullshit, but it was killed for good in the ruins of Gaza: anyone still spouting it is either knowingly lying or 12
Replace “America” with “voluntary coalition of countries and individuals who promote freedom and justice
I would really wish to replace the US Empire and their wardog vassals with what you wrote.
Trump and JD Vance are doing their best to replace the US as the “leader of the free world” with a coalition of increasingly well armed and assertive independent blocs and states. Totally wild to see it cut its own throat like that.
The rest aren’t really wardogs, despite France and the UK seizing the opportunity in Libya a few years back. I don’t think the UK was quite over the Lockerbie bombing, and who the fuck knows with France.
The US has never promoted freedom or justice for anyone that wasn’t rich, and participation in our empire’s agenda has never been voluntary
If only there where some way for Russia to prevent this…
As you can see from the comments, libs are way more delusional than in your meme, they aren’t even admitting the three first lines.
it’s heart warming to see that the reality to this narrative still has defenders and it makes me wonder what people will believe when reality wins out.
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Nobody has paid for the drones used by Ukraine for free, except those who were paid by money collected through voluntary donations by private citizens like myself. The states who partook in the war effort did so in form of loans to the Ukrainian state. Loans are to be repaid in time and are no gift
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Not only the CIA has shared intel with Ukraine, the English, French, Italian, Polish and German services also are reporting their findings to Ukraine, especially since when the cheeto-in-command has decided that the CIA should cooperate less with the sbu because his friend put-it-in was being butthurt too much on the battlefield
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Nobody’s using Ukraine as a proxy, Ukraine is defending itself from an aggressor and other states are supporting its endeavours as they see fit. To stop this “proxy” war as you call it, it would suffice for Russia to return its troops to its territory. As long as they will be occupying Ukrainian land the resistance against its occupation will not stop, wether it be a structured fight between two armies or a resistance guerrilla by lone men and groups against the invader
So, who’s the delusional one here?
Ukraine is supported by the western empire for the same reason Israel is, it’s a glorified US millitary base in the region surrounded by geopolitical adversaries. Russia will not stop their advance while they are clearly winning, and the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics already voted to join the Russian Federation. The idea that there will be guerilla resistance is just unfounded, Kiev has been at war with the Donbass region for a decade.
Europe is increasingly being demoted from imperialist vassals of the US Empire to periphery countries. Europe has very little hard power compared to the major players in the world stage and is utterly dependent on the US Empire’s hard power. The soft power Europe has is slipping as well. No amount of your homophobic pejoratives will change the fact that Europe doesn’t bring much to the table despite being the loudest ones there, and that’s why they are in fewer and fewer international talks where major powers are involved.
There won’t be any resistance as there hasn’t been any when the Russian first attacked without declaring war in the first place. I remember in 2022 before the invasion: “Russia will raise its eyebrows and Ukraine will understand” “the Ukrainian and the russian are brotherly people and we will be saluted as liberators when we will march into Kiev”. How did it ended up for your heroes, tankies?
Also, seeing Ukraine as a military outpost for the USA when no military bases where on their land but Poland was a few km away must be the funniest cope I’ve ever read. Please do go on, I really need some laughs
The people of Donetsk and Luhansk, who voted to join the Russian Federation, seem to be happy with the way the war is going. Kiev was ethnically cleansing them since 2014, after all, so that checks out. As for Ukraine being a glorified millitary outpost, again, it’s similar to Israel. Ukraine gets arms from NATO, is cozy with NATO, and is in general a highly millitarized country. Poland is also governed by the far-right, this isn’t the grand own you think it is. Europe since the end of World War II has been subservient to the US Empire, that isn’t new. What’s new is Europe’s demotion from vassal to periphery, which is an ongoing process accelerated in recent years.
Ah yes, the famous “free referendum” held under gunpoint, how could I forget??
Also, can you cite any source for the “ethnic cleansing” being perpetrated by the Ukrainian against the russians since 2014 in the Donetsk and Luhansk? Because the UN from when russia was still sitting in the council reports something completely different…
Ah yes, the famous “free referendum” held under gunpoint, how could I forget?? Also, can you cite any source for the “ethnic cleansing” being perpetrated by the Ukrainian against the russians since 2014 in the Donetsk and Luhansk? Because the UN from when russia was still sitting in the council reports something completely different… https://share.google/XaamDlq40m8hEDyOG
Cowbee replied to you and included links to some propaganda websites, while your perfectly reasonable comment was removed because, looks up rule 1, you apparently weren’t “civil and nice”.
I spent the time fact-checking a few claims in that comment and one of the articles (first one I clicked on) in order to be able to confidently state what should be exceedingly obvious to all: Cowbee is intentionally spreading propaganda with lies and distortions.
That puts all of Cowbee’s commentary into question.
I decided to look at just one of those websites, https://sarahwestall.com/yes-its-true-evidence-of-genocide-crimes-against-humanity-towards-russians-in-ukraine/, which has the following claims:
- In 2020, Russian-language schools were eliminated (in March 2020, Vladimir Zelensky signed the law “On Full General Secondary Education”, which eliminated Russian-language schools in the country from September 2020).
- IT’S A LIE, BECAUSE: https://ukranews.com/en/news/689826-zelenskyy-signs-secondary-education-law-with-3-ukrainian-language-learning-models-for-national / archive.org show that this was not a ban… Understandably controversial and worthy of debate, but clearly not a ban, therefore making it a lie.
- 14/06/2020 The Ministry of Culture of Ukraine has decided on the candidacy of a new language ombudsman, proposing for this position the extremely odious Lviv activist Svyatoslav Litinsky, who “Called Russians “pig-dogs””
- IT’S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: In June 2020, the Ministry of Culture considered potential candidates for the position because the first ombudsman, Tetyana Monakhova, resigned. Svyatoslav Litynskyi (Litinsky) was mentioned in media and activist circles as a possible candidate. He was never appointed. The position ultimately went to Taras Kremin (appointed July 2020), a far more moderate and mainstream figure.
- 05/08/2020 Irina Farion said that the Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine remained “beyond the country’s historical paradigm.” “Their historical homeland is Muscovy, I really want them to be comfortable there. They must pack luggage – and go there. “They shoot us with their language”
- IT’S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: Irina Farion was a fringe extremist voice, not a representative of Ukraine or its government. Her statements reflect her ideology, not state policy, and using her quotes to claim persecution of Russian speakers is deeply misleading.
- 01/07/2021 The Verkhonva Rada adopted the law “On the indigenous peoples of Ukraine”, Russians were not included in the indigenous peoples
- IT’S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: Russians are not classified as an indigenous people because they have an existing nation-state (the russian federation). This means that they are considered a national minority, the same as hungarians or romanians, and not an indigenous people. This is standard international practice.
- In 2014, the future president of Ukraine, Zelensky, spoke to the Ukrainian military, who were carrying out a punitive operation in the Donbas. Zelensky said from the stage: “Guys, I bow to you that you are protecting us from all sorts of scum!”
- IT’S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: Zelensky did say words to the effect of: “thanking soldiers for defending Ukraine and protecting civilians from armed militants.” In some recordings and reports, phrases like “захищаєте нас від усякої нечисті / всякого бруду” appear. This is colloquial Ukrainian/Russian slang, roughly meaning “armed thugs,” “criminals,” or “violent militants.” Crucially: He was not referring to civilians. He was not referring to Russian speakers. He was not referring to Donbas residents as a group. He was referring to armed groups fighting Ukrainian forces in 2014.
I encourage everyone to be vigilant against propaganda, and to avoid falling into the gish gallop trap that is commonly used. Take a short amount of quality time to pick one lie or one distortion of the truth apart, then call the poster/commenter out on it to ensure it isn’t left unchallenged, then move on with your life.
I included links to valid sites, as well as to entirely western sources. It sounds like, more than anything, you’re upset with the facts at hand and how they are presented. A key example from yourself:
01/07/2021 The Verkhonva Rada adopted the law “On the indigenous peoples of Ukraine”, Russians were not included in the indigenous peoples
IT’S PROPAGANDA, BECAUSE: Russians are not classified as an indigenous people because they have an existing nation-state (the russian federation). This means that they are considered a national minority, the same as hungarians or romanians, and not an indigenous people. This is standard international practice.
Russians are the ones native to the Donbass region, which was added to Ukraine only a century ago. The fact that the Russian Federation exists does not mean that ethnic Russians aren’t indigenous to the Donbass region, and as such deserve special protections, and certainly not the ethnic cleansing they are subject to.
Same with phrasing Ukraine’s language laws as a ban. It isn’t a lie, you’re just more upset with those that take issue with Kiev cracking down on Russian speakers and are getting caught up in the phrasing. Ukraine is cracking down on Russians, and Russians were obviously upset. You’re doing the same thing people who try to claim there’s no systemic racism in the US because the laws don’t explicitly target people of color.
As for the person you’re defending, they admitted to being a Euronationalist:
A racist:
A dehumanizer of slavic people:
And defended their homophobia by saying I need to learn more about my own pansexuality:
You’re defending an anti-communist, Euronationalist, homphobic racist. In other words, the archetypical fascist, who is in this case trying their best to minimize the crimes against humanity of a far-right neo-Nazi regime that is ethnically cleansing their territory of Russians.
I encourage everyone to be vigilant against propaganda, and to avoid falling into the gish gallop trap that is commonly used. Take a short amount of quality time to pick one lie or one distortion of the truth apart, then call the poster/commenter out on it to ensure it isn’t left unchallenged, then move on with your life.
I just did this for you, thanks for the advice!
Are you able to cite sources who are not completely forgetful of the “green men” fighting against the Ukrainian state in eastern Ukraine before 2014 and being supported by put-it-in and the russian army? Because if not you should also be ok with israel when they say that Palestine does not exist and their land should be owned by israelis because the bible says they were there 2000 years ago… Are you a zionist as well perchance?
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As an European I feel you haven’t understood anything about what’s happening with Ukraine. America is not the only country helping the Ukrainian people in their fight against the russian horde. We Europeans have done more than the USA to provide Ukraine with weapons, intelligence and resources, but still you Americans are trying to be seen as the end all be all in this war once again. You weren’t the ultimate heroes during ww2 and you definitely aren’t the best supporter of Ukraine today, as Mr. Cheeto-in-Chief is showing in his public declarations on a daily basis.
Plus, all the drones and intelligence you “supposedly” handled to the Ukrainians are still being used by Ukrainians to defend themselves against their invader, you cannot call this a “proxy war” while Ukrainians are being bombed on a daily basis and Mr. Cheeto-in-Chief is snuggling up to his handler, Mr. Put-it-in.
.ml being delusional as usual, nothing new under the sun
Lmao, the only way to respond to my criticism to this meme is to cancel my reply. Obvious tyrannical people being themselves as always
You repeated literal Nazi rhetoric about “Russian hordes” and spouted Eurochauvanism, then went on to accuse people of being “brainwashed,” which itself is a fantasy idea used to terminate discussion.
How should I call an army invading a neighbour country if not a “horde”? Viruses? Bacteria? Tell me what analogy I should use and I’ll do it
You can call them invaders if you really want to use that analogy. You don’t need to rely on racism and dehumanization, but Euronationalists always reach for those as y’all have done for centuries.
It would be easier for me to avoid dehumanising the Russian if they weren’t the first one to dehumanise Ukrainians in their rhetoric. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you, if they feel bad for being compared to non-human concepts they might want to rethink their entire way of behaviour
It’s incredibly easy to not be racist, you should give it a try sometime.
As should the russians. Why should I be the first to correct my way when I haven’t even invaded my neighbour through a war which has killed tens of thousands of innocent people?
Ah yes the dehumanizing Russian rhetoric towards the Ukrainians of… *checks notes* calling them a brotherly people. Smh…how awful of them.
“How can you effect me to criticize foreigners if I can’t be racist!”
“I broke the rules, and they removed my comment! This is an outrage!”
Please point me to a “non-tyranical” com then
Racist, homophobic, chauvinistic, and juvenile; it’s a shitlib bingo
Check the box you placed your brain it, it might be filled with russian propaganda.
Damn, you really thought that was good enough to post?
Cope
As the Russians are doing since the start of their “2 weekz military operation”? I’m not good enough brother, I’ll leave the cope to those who have mastered it
They’re winning, cry about it
They’ve been winning for the past (almost) 4 years. Are they not tired of winning? Or are they just coping hard?
“War long therefore russia not winning” lol thank you
Ukraine will retake Crimea any day now!
against the russian horde. We Europeans
Said the one defending the only actor in this war using the same tactics used by Hitler before the start of ww2. If you weren’t a brainwashed tankie you’d be even amusing but, alas, you’re only a mouthpiece for the last vestige of the Russian dictatorship
you’d be even amusing but, alas,
Why do you losers always speak like you learned to talk solely from anime and Joss Whedon movies?
Anything’s possible when you make shit up kiddo
That’s what I’ve been saying to tankies all this time but they refuse to listen ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
That’s probably because they’re right and you’re an incurable moron whose opinions on everything can and should be disregarded entirely
As I said elsewhere, I’ll leave the cope to those who have mastered this art like yourself :)
“I know you are, but what am I!”
You are like a little baby
Literally “I know you are, but what am I!”
And people say there is never white on white crime LOL
