I don’t want things to get simpler to the detriment of the power that Linux has. As long as there’s no regression who cares
I can’t say I’ve ever ran into anyone like this. And the Arch wiki is so newbie friendly, I use it all the time and I don’t even use Arch.
Ive seen a lot of anti-gui sentiment but nothing I can remember enough to link to
man this is a good linux meme, its funny and its real criticism of linux. why were all the linux memes shitty for a while there? why are they better now suddenly?
luckily people seem to be becoming better with this.
linux is also becoming better at being user friendly.
No, seriously.
This mindset of, “If you don’t like to read pages of documentation to figure out how to do the thing you’re wanting to do, then maybe Linux isn’t for you?” Or the “god. How dare you ask such a STUPID question. You’re using Linux wrong and it probably isn’t for you. Go back to baby’s first OS!” Is the biggest gripe I have about using Linux.
My gripe is “oh, you picked the wrong distro”
I just want my printer to work ffs
I’d put that one on the printer manufacturers. They love making them crappy.
Especially since the manpages are not written to always be comprehensible for end-users, but for developers and professionals. Some tools like tldr can help, however they rarely come preinstalled and aren’t getting the attention they deserve.
So you ever tried support with windows? Go to some crappy community site with people who barely know what they are talking about and try some powershell and regedit crap.
Or go read conflicting Microsoft documentation that always seems to make man files look easy.
Its computers. You read stuff to deal with stuff, the OS is irrelevant.
The problem is that the road between creating a piece of software that does something well, and then creating simplification layers on top of it is typically much longer than just “edit a config file” and “here’s a readme”.
You need extra documentation, config gating and workflow, warnings, UI/UX work etc.
I know there are Linux elitists but kind of expecting that much extra work for what is still at it’s core mostly volunteer software seems like it’s own form of elitism.
The thing is, simple can mean two things, and they are quite often at odds with each other.
It can mean simple to understand, or simple to use.
For example, a piece of software that’s just a binary, a config file and a man page describing the config file and the software’s behavior is generally quite easy to understand. Like, you can fit the idea of the program entirely into your mind and “comprehend” it, though it may not be easy to use for a novice.
By contrast, a piece of software that contains additional layers for easy of use, like a GUI to edit options, may be simple to use, but not necessarily simple to understand. The additional layers add more complexity that does not contribute to core functionality of the program, it can become unclear what gets changed where when you click on buttons, the config file is likely not documented, human readable or editable, or it may even be a completely opaque configuration database (the registry), … So making the software more simple to use, often makes it harder to comprehend.
I, and I think many other nerds, like software that is simple in the “comprehensible” sense, we want to be able to wrap our head around it completely and we don’t mind putting in a little bit of effort to achieve that comprehension, whereas other people prefer to hit the ground running.
Absolutely agreed, I find it extremely telling that most people who say that have never personally contributed nor donated. Its ok to have expectations but its not ok to make demands from volunteers, thats why so many devs get burnt out and leave.
Hey, I installed Arch btw with Hyprland and I gotta say, the docs are super newbie-friendly. No problems on my end.
The Arch Wiki is so nice
I’ve been hearing about Linux elitists for the last 20 years, and I have yet to meet one. But what I do see is an endless wave of trolling and bad faith arguments about the supposed complexity of Linux.
They treat a wide array of developers, maintainers and enthusiasts as employees of Linux inc, and now they’re grumpy because their imaginary ticket submitted to a nonexisting helpdesk is not being processed.
I have recieved much more help and support from the Linux community than from any other proprietary software helpdesk.
I’ve been hearing about Linux elitists for the last 20 years, and I have yet to meet one.
Post/browse a help forum, it doesn’t take long to find them
YOU SHALL USE tty ON A 4K HDR SCREEN
I use Arch BTW!
In fairness sometimes users don’t want to hear the truth
I too have never seen this. I see a lot of people claiming they are there but don’t seen to find them. Been doing this a long time.
Simplification is kind of vague
Just let the user decide
Yeah they probably mean easy. And probably easy for me, or what I already know.
That said, one of the complaints I commonly hear about Gnome is that it’s simplified to the point of being hard to use. So again, simplification is probably not what they mean.
There was a long time when a casual user would have been better off on Windows, but I don’t think that’s true anymore, at least not on every distro.
Just as you can use Windows for years and never need Group Policy or Regedit, you can do Linux just the same without terminal.
This is the area where I feel Linux has come the farthest since I became interested in it.
Here’s the thing that a lot of long-term linux users don’t seem to understand: If it involves typing out a command in a terminal, or editing a configuration text file, 99% of casual users are already out. It doesn’t matter if they just copy-paste a command or have change a single number in a text file, they literally don’t even want to try, they consider that “too complicated”.
And yet I had to edit a config.json file for a program to run on my friend’s w11 pc yesterday, interesting…
I mean, you’re right, he was too dumb to do it, but also that was on windows.
Users copying and pasting random command line code from the Internet should be fine
It is how every community support page works.
For windows. Poweshell that regedit it will fix everything.
Had to do this recently for a borked nvidia driver on windows. Welcome to computers!
and that’s why catering to casuals is a loosing game that shouldn’t be bothered with.
Loosing what? A volley of arrows? I don’t generally care about small typos like this, but it’s always fun to be the reason an elitist prick is losing at elitism.
loosing the terminal and RTFM at the newcomers.
~When in doubt double down~
Gee, I wonder why Linux only has 2% market share?
Except Windows does cater to it, and despite Linux’ supposed superiority it is still by far the dominant desktop OS.
I just have never had a Linux system that didn’t require some sort of terminal work to fix the occasional bug. A couple of updates ago Fedora left me with conflicting packages that needed the terminal to straighten out.
If you are using Linux you should learn terminal basics. The terminal is a very powerful tool that can be useful if you learn it. That doesn’t mean you need to use it all the time but it is nice to have in some cases.
Linux is so complicated!
Translation:
Linux actually isn’t Windows.
Absolutely this, im all in favor of making Linux more accessible but we dont need to become a Windows clone
Lol, what? This is suggesting window is simple?
Linux is so much better in this regard.
People don’t see it because they have habits, but once you support both OS’s, windows is full of bizarre quirks and nonsense.
To configure most suckless tools you need to… recompile them. The readme says:
Because dwm is customized through editing its source code, it’s pointless to make binary packages of it. This keeps its userbase small and elitist. No novices asking stupid questions.
But if you are trying to compile suckless tools, you are already in too deep.
Those dudes are lost in the sauce. Nobody should be using big endian these days
Wow. Just wow. What a bunch of utter darlings. Just let them stew in their own idiocy.
Edit: To clarify, I mean the people who wrote this readme.
You need to edit a C header file used as a config file, and run make and use the resulting executable file. That hardly keeps out anyone.
At the same time DWM is very convenient, and so was WMII.
I know how to compile my own software, but I’m not gonna fucking do it. I’ll leave a comment where I can calling the devs lazy assholes (because they are) and move on with life, as will many others
Because that’s unnecessary elitism, and it’s gross. Also, 1 step of extra work is bullshit and wastes human life for no fuckin reason
If you’ve seen suckless tools, the whole point is that they are rudimentary. DWM is one header file and one source code file of ~2k lines.
It’s not lazy because having a config file wouldn’t add anything to using those things, and it’s not elitism or gross because it’s not hard for those who understand why’d they use suckless tools at all. It also contributes to atmosphere.
FFS, please stop trying to press other people to do things your way, that’s what’s gross.
That keeps out 90% of the population. Do not underestimate how complex that is to people who aren’t tech-savvy and who are used to “it just works”.
Something having an X-Wing pic keeps out a lot of people too, cause not everyone likes Star Wars. What’s your point?
A preference for digital media and requiring someone to edit a file then recompile the project are two different things entirely. I don’t care for star wars and wouldn’t care what images they had from those movies, but even though I’m a dev and absolutely could build the source if needed. I’m quite likely not going to care enough to do that. A user that has never messed with source code is likely not going to be comfortable doing all that.
You gotta remember that your average user isn’t a dev. They aren’t someone who’s used to modifying configs to set something up. They’re more like your grandmother who isn’t even comfortable looking into the settings app on their phone.
To remain polite, I’ll note that this subject has nothing to do with “your average user” or anything else connected to selling something useless to somebody who doesn’t care. All this grandma and average user and other talk is absolutely out of place about tools never intended to be sold on a market or be used by everyone. You are not required to use suckless tools in the first place.
I don’t find it difficult, and have enjoyed sxmo on the PinePhone. I understand the suckless approach, but I do have to admit that many people that I know, even tech-savvy ones, probably would not want to rebuild to configure something.
probably would not want to rebuild to configure something.
It builds in a second. About DWM. It’s 2k lines of C code, all they do is basic functionality. It’s not some cumbersome process of setting up an environment, and then looking at running lines of compiler output as if you were some fscking Neo installing Gentoo.
Heres the thing, it strongly depends what you mean by “simplification” and tbh im not sure that would be good for Linux. Im all in favor of adding accessibility features and making desktops more complete but sometimes complexity or being different is good. I love tiling for example, I love how comsic implemets tiling. However tiling isnt naturally intuitive to Windows users, does that mean we need to abandon it in favor of “simplification”? Do we need to abandon the system of distro maintained repos and package managers because “its too complicated”?
I suppose my point is that we should make Linux more accessible by lowering the skill floor to use it but it should not and does not require lowering the skill ceiling for advanced users like me. I love the focus on TUI software and I love the terminal (that doesn’t mean GUI software should get less love, it means I would rather not see TUI packages sacrificed).
Furthermore I cannot speak for anyone but myself but I personally try to help people in matrix/discord chats and places like this. However sometimes I will come across someone whos use case doesn’t fit Linux. Maybe they need a specific software, maybe they’re using niche proprietary hardware that they need, but I personally refuse to suggest Linux to someone if it wont be good for them. If someone tells me “hey I use Linux but I need some software like adobe” I would suggest they reinstall Windows. In addition before I reccomend Linux to someone I tell them that Linux isnt Windows, I make it clear there are downsides that need to be taken with the upsides and sometimes things wont work exactly the same.
TLDR: Im all for people using Linux, however we shouldn’t lie to ourselves and others
Arch wiki btw
