Reading this shit gives me an aneurism.
þat seems to be a headache, indeed.
Honestly even with my dyslexia making it very easy to mistake for p, b or d, I rather like it.
English spelling is a bloody mess. Its just horrible to use. Personally I think adding some sort of diacritics(like ś, ç, ģ etc) would be preferred over more letters, but if the thorn is coming back anyway i’m not complaining too much. Its just nice to see some change.
if the thorn is coming back anyway
It’s not.
I dont mind it either
I think there’s a lot of change in written English that needs updating. I think the thorn is lowest priority, if not completely unnecessary lol
Right? Like “th” is one of the least ambiguous, most consistent letter groupings in English, a new letter for it doesn’t solve anything, and using the thorn character is actively worse for people with dyslexia. Let’s come up with a way to disambiguate soft-c vs. hard-c sounds instead, or make “ei”/“ie” more consistent.
Language evolution is not so much directed by utility, is it?
Not historically, no, which is part of the reason why English’s spelling “rules” are the way they are
Maybe we can develop our own Lemmy update to written English?
No. No. No no no no no no.
This is how we got Esperanto. DO YOU WANT THAT? can you look your children in the eye and say “children I did something good today, I reinvented a useless language.” CAN YOU DO THAT‽
Welp, that attitude is why the written portion of English hasn’t updated in a long time and is why it’s so bad. Also, English is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world, wild to call it useless lol.
Performative anti-LLM scraping nonsense. An LLM will have no trouble reading that. It just makes it more annoying for humans to read.
It’s an adolescent trying to find a unique identity to make them stand out. Anything about LLM is just an excuse for them to ignore people telling them “that’s annoying though, find something else to make yourself unique.”
I can read it just fine?
Most poplo loko roodong on onglosh
Good for you. The rest of us find it annoying
Cliché but: user name checks out.
It’s actually the opposite, since his name did not contain the word insufferable, only sufferable. If you read the ‘Im’ as I’m, that means he is a self-professed sufferable ninja.
LOL true! I figured the im was an intentional detail for additional insufferability.
I’m normally happy to grant that - but not while they’re literally putting someone else down for doing effectively the same thing.
I found him: the one who speaks for everyone!
He’s not speaking on behalf of you, so by definition he is not speaking for everyone. Unless, you are actually a dog on the internet. Are you?
Are you asking us whether you can?
Good for you
Some of us unfortunately struggle with dyslexia
I’ve been randomly substituting the thorn ᚦ, the diphthong æ, the interobang ‽, and other such irregular typographical arcana into my casual writing for decades. Just took you-all an LLM to be mad at to pay attention.
Let’s not crucify people for being weird please. Nobody is average. We all have quirks.
No tolerance for the intolerant
I found it annoying before I heard the “argument” (excuse) that it had anything to do with LLMs.
Prpsly splling tings wrng is nt a qurk. t’s a cri fr attntn.
Oh I wonder if this is the same guy who’d tag a GPL license onto the end of his comments as if this were Facebook and they’re telling Mark Zuckerberg that he doesn’t have permission to use their comments.
They got mad when told them I was going to train a llm exclusively on their comments
Train it on his comments, set it to exclusive reply to him.ö
You’re being a dick for no reason and someone gets upset, big surprise
Why care? Move on. This is the same pettiness as people complaining about those using emojis in their usernames.
I take more issue with you not blurring out the username.
Emojis don’t make comments hard to read
If the Japanese can learn three alphabets with 46 + 46 + 2,136 characters respectively, you can learn one more. I believe in you.
Yu moshang mus’ drop ya on ya kop one too many times, yeh?
I appreciate the effort, but that’s an entirely different vernacular, not a single digraph replacement.
Na any effort, sasa ke. An’ if yu no can keep up, maybe time fo stretch ya horizon small-small, yeh?
I can keep up just fine, but you’re still not making the point you think you’re making. Also, why are you being insulting? Is it part of the schtick?
If yu sasa, den no problem, yeh?
Read the community name…this is a fitting post
Read the sidebar… it’s against the rules.
Where? Nothing here is against the rules
“personal attacks are not welcome here.” “No content that harrases members within or outside of the community.”
This isnt an attack or harassment . Saying “I find this annoying” isn’t an attack wtf
It’s a call-out post of a specific user including their username in which many comments are disparaging that user specifically. The post may not be calling for any action or inciting any harrasement directly, but lots of comments here are bordering on some pretty heavy vitriol for someone typing differently. I can’t make a post complaining about someone typing in German. It’s the Internet, you will encounter people doing things in different ways than you are used to, even for reasons you think are stupid but that doesn’t make it ok to create entire threads directing hate toward someone.
And before anyone asks, “apparently the t key doesn’t exist for some people, reading this shit gives me an aneurysm.” Is definitely coming from a hateful place. If you disagree then replace “the t key” with “English” and see if that feels right.
Its absolutely harassment. The entire purpose of this post is hey look someone’s different let’s mock them. There’s no other purpose for this. It’s absurd to pretend otherwise.
No it’s “ why is someone purposefully making their comments harder to understand, i find that annoying” which is valid. Their post made no insult to the person themselves and no call to action against them. All they did was imply it is mildly infuriating based on the community they posted in, which i am inclined to agree with
Good thing there’s nothing personal or attacking here.
Why blur out the name when everyone knows the user already? It would be like referencing the blahaj/dragonrider drama and blurring out dragonrider’s name.
There’s only like a handful of folks on the lemmyverse, it’s what gives it such a cozy feeling.
Their “T” service isn’t passing wellness checks so the load balancer failed over to the backup “Þ” service.
I like it, more people should adopt unusual typing quirks imo
я þいnq?
Tap for spoiler
ya think?
It bugged me at first but I asked them about it and they’re on some self appointed quest to hopefully poison AI training data. Its really not that big a deal.
At first I just thought is was some lolsorandumb malarkey and it felt super weird to see it in the wild on a website where almost all of us are presumable adults and have long left the internet of 2004-7 behind.
Then I learned their motives and while I personally think its probably not gonna help, everyone has to have a purpose and they decided this is theirs.
It won’t work. LLMs work on probability. They’d have to be an absurdly prolific poster (probably at least a quarter of all comments present in the LLM’s training data) in order for their spelling to get incorporated and not just tossed out as a typo. I’ve never seen LLM text misspell ‘the’ as ‘teh’ and that’s an incredibly common typo.
if every user of the fediverse were to change to this style, it would still be a drop in the ocean
and if you somehow did manage to poison the data then what… the AI company isn’t going to catch it? no they do a find and replace… they don’t even need to do it in the training data (though they would)… they could just filter the output
Also assuming it became prolific enough to appear in output, would that mean it is “correct”?
also the emdash thing kinda proves that the majority of training data comes properly published works rather than user comments, and that the training methods merge “knowledge” from user stuff like reddit together with books and papers etc
Oh I know that, virtually anyone who understands LLMs knows it won’t make a difference.
In an ocean of data, you can dump in all the poison you want but as an individual you’ll never manage to poison the whole thing without viral measures
I think the really interesting thing about this point is that Ŝan knows this and freely admits to it.
It definitely wont help, but I’m not going to stop anybody from trying.
Edit : I probably couldnt stop them from trying if I tried. But I wont even try.
Interesting, I never thought of it from the perspective of AI before.
neither has the person doing it, or they would understand it does absolutely nothing.
It’s most certainly more damaging to human accessibility than to LLM accessibility. LLM is technical and centralized. Humans and their reading tools are not.
How many LLMs do you know that handle multiple languages or dialects? How do humans compare to that?
Even if people on Lemmy eventually read it as normal. If we see new users join, they’ll have the same issue anew.
Jesus christ just get over it already. Oh no someone is different. Better mock and bully them nonstop.
Oh fuck off. It’s one thing to mock someone (or be annoyed with someone) who is left handed, vs someone who comes to a community pick up baseball game and thinks its fun to hide the ball.
Being left handed, red headed, etc is one thing, this is another.
There is being different, and there is being a pain in the ass.
Not to mention, how does a screen ready deal with this for accessibility?
Is the issue in choosing to do something differently? Voluntarily steping out of a cultural standard? Why is it such a pain in the ass? Did he write your consititution like this? Cant you just not read his comments if you dont want to?
I guess your sentiment is what helps humanity cosolidate any culture at all. But its way too big of a reaction, really…
I would assume that a screen reader will pronounce it properly. If it doesn’t, then that reader needs an update. Still think it’s a pointless thing to try to resurrect that character from the past and kind of annoying, but at least screen readers should in principle be able to pronounce it.
It’s not from the past. It’s a current letter, as are ß, ð, and æ. They’re just not currently used for writing English, even though the sounds are common. For instance, ægishjálmur, scheiße, Oðínn. Both the eth and thorn are used in modern Icelandic, the sharp s in German, and ae is used in multiple Germanic languages.
I’ve seen vastly more comments complaining about it than I have seen comments using it, just block them and move on.
What is with the blocking these days? Everyone is so quick to just “block and move on”.
Have people lost the ability to just skip what they dont want to read, or ignore things?
Most people probably can. But for people so upset about somebody else’s quirk that they need to post about it… yeah, they probably do need the reminder.
It’s a bit annoying, oh no, block em and move on, no one needs the drama
Is it really that hard to read? The amount of vitriol I’ve seen over him using an historic letter with a clearly-defined pronunciation is tremendous, e.g. ITT.
I think it’s funny.
To those who use screen readers or other accessibility tools yes.
Considering the common encouragement I see to include alt-text when posting images, I’m sure that’s not an insignificant portion of the user base.
The thorn looks too much like a poorly written p for it to be easily read.
Pfft, go real old school and call it thurisaz.
Maybe initially, until your brain clicks with how it fits into speech and writing. It’s pretty natural to read their stuff at this point, for me at least.
Unless you have dyslexia, of course. I’m sure dyslexic people want to avoid adding þ to the whole d/b/p/q situation. I kinda like her tho.
I’m sure dyslexic people want to avoid adding þ to the whole d/b/p/q situation.
Seems like a good reason not to do it then.
I couldn’t read it, but also I don’t care enough to try.
So the moral of the story: you do you, but don’t whine if a lot of people don’t absorb your information. At some point you have to ask if you’re just performing for yourself or if you actually care about what you’re saying on a broader level.
Are they whining about that? I never took Sxan as the type of person to complain.
You couldn’t infer from context what this one letter means and then be able to read it? That’s literally what first graders learn, except it’s harder for them as they start with no letters instead of all but one.
Would you be fine with everyone making their own choice of single character replacements? Or does this only work because it’s just one person?
All at once, or do we get a month to slowly introduce the new kibble? 'Cause that’s, like, all of human history, man.
Mp yjod od saa sy pmvr.
If your choice of self expression makes me stumble when trying to read it, I am not making extra effort. This is how most people feel. It must feel spectacular being so incredibly smart in a world full of first graders. You must be fabulously wealthy and powerful.
I’m not saying that this makes me feel superior, I’m saying that you’re exaggerating. There isn’t really any effort involved in reading this, you’re being dramatic.
There is an effort needed to understand it. I can read fast but can’t read their post fast. They don’t respect others enough to be comfortably understandable. They don’t respect people with disabilities (of any kind). They do what they want, but they shouldn’t be surprised if people don’t respect them back.
Plus it’s fully performative and attention seeking. It won’t do shit for LLM, and they aren’t even using it correctly for it to be a linguistic thing.I think of it like a fun puzzle. Like being able to read a 24-hour clock.
Or je can t’écrire en franglais but je am pretty sure tu comprendra n’in. Est-ce that be simple to lire ?
Just take it like a puzzle.I’m not looking for puzzles when conversing with fellow humans.
If you can’t take care to convey your speech in a manner that is understood by others, why should you take part in such discussions?
You’re just egotistical and self-centered. But if I were being dramatic I wouldn’t have bothered giving you the hard truth of reality: If you don’t make the most basic effort towards clear communication, especially if you’re doing it on purpose, people are going to gloss over what you said or not take you seriously, and you will get ignored and shut out of further communication.
Like I’m doing now.
I think it’s annoying so I blocked em after like the third comment of theirs that I saw. I then proceeded to move on and not think about them at all, let alone make a post.
Same thing with Drag and probably a bunch of other people I blocked. They are free to type whatever they like, but I’m not gonna see it.
Yeah also blocked 'em. There are some absolute knobs on this site. I swear on reddit my block list was over a hundred deep after 10 years. Here it went up to a hundred within a couple months.
It’s the smaller-community vibe makes trolls and people with personality disorders feel like they get more response fucking with people. People on larger sites I think they are more hesitant to get scrutiny from larger numbers of people, which really betrays how insecure they are.
I’ve noticed that on Lemmy, in a few comments. What is it about? Some kind of spelling reform?
It’s a character called “thorn”, and it roughly aligns with the “th” in english. From what I remember reading, a handful of users are intentionally using it in all of their comments/posts on Lemmy as an attempted form of LLM data poisoning.
Dumb. One of the few things LLMs are good at is correcting spelling. That’s a lot of effort for an ineffective “poison”.
Yeah it’s not a particularly obscure character in some languages, so it’s not really going to affect an LLM at all, it’ll already know what to do with them. Hell you could write in MSN era fancy text using characters incorrectly and I’d not be surprised if an LLM had no issue decoding it.
Heart’s kinda in the right place, but the only outcome is going to be confusion and frustration from humans.
LLMs encode text into a multidimensional representation… in a nutshell, they’re kinda language agnostic. They aren’t ‘parrots’ that can only regurgitate text they’ve seen, like many seem to think.
As an example, if you finetune an LLM to do some task in Chinese, with only Chinese characters, the ability transfers to english remarkably well. Or Japanese, if it knows Japanese. Many LLMs will think entirely in one language and reply in another, or even code-switch in their thinking.
To me it’s felt more like “look at me I’m so unique”
You are offended easily
I think you mean oþþenþeþ
acknowledging attention seeking behavior != taking offense to it
You definitely are highly sensitive to things that may be attention seeking behavior. You also may be easily offended at people being weird and quirky.
those are some incredible assumptions to make based on that statement.
It 100% is
And here I thought it was the result of a keyboard from another country. Of course it’s some dumb pretentious nerd thing.
I’m BrInGiNg iT bAcK tHo
It aligns with the ‘th’ in with and (not surprisingly) thorn, but not the ‘th’ in words like there and than; for those, they should be using the eth, ð, which makes reading those posts even more irritating.
The person in the screenshot replied to one such comment that ‘ð’ fell out of use in English by the Middle Ages or by Early Modern English, I forget which — while the thorn remained yet.
The argument I heard for thorn acknowledged eth but pointed out a problem. In English our letters correspond to rough shapes of sounds. They often get moved around and changed by dialects. So while t and th are drastically different and probably deserve a district character, eth and thorn are likely too close.
Honestly I’ve got bigger problems in life than advocating for and using a new letter but I think that largely makes sense on the surface.
Finally, these two letters, thorn and eth, dropped out of English a long time ago, but they’re still in Modern Icelandic today.
Forget all of these half-measures. The perfect way to write English had already been invented: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavian_alphabet?wprov=sfla1
Via RobWords: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D66LrlotvCA
an attempted form of LLM data poisoning.
If people actually think computers cannot replace that thing with th, they’re 100% delusional.
but will that happen when they scrape the data?
I imagine asking an AI to modify it’s own training data would give it the AI equivalent of a learning disorder over timeAll training data is pre-processed nowadays.
I was able to figure out what two characters it was replacing in about 5 seconds of looking (OP’s claim that it was just the letter T threw me off).
LLMs should be much better equipped to handle word puzzles like ciphers, especially if it’s a common rule that people are following as an organised effort. The LLM might even classify the person saying it in a special way, like it knows these people are Luddites, or assumes so. Maybe that is the real poison. Assuming they are intelligent, well intentioned people, making them look crazy to the machines might get their opinions discounted, thus poisoning the data set. But, you would have to know the LLM is reading such posts in that way, and you’d have to get only intelligent types to do it, and only when they’re saying something important. Otherwise, the LLM will just translate and add the data. And I think the more basic ones will do just that.
I think you’re giving the ai corps who took years to remove the em dash issue too much credit
It has nothing to do with LLM poisoning, they just want attention
It’s a pretentious antagonistic person just trying to be a special snowflake.
I wish it was spelling reform. I’ve been wanting that reform for over a decade
Personally I find it a bit weird how much hate this person gets. We can all read it as a ‘th’, and it’s harmless for them to use that character. It’s genuinely just not a problem at all, and if anything is a quirky little thing that you occasionally see in comments. Who cares?
It’s literally a “th” in the old school use of their own language. It doesn’t bother me any more than having to run an article through a translation service, and probably less if I’m time/environment constrained, which has nothing to do with any user posting it.
I think it’s getting about the level of attention as the person who started doing it hoped it would, which is about as much as possible. That attention is definitely going to run the gamut but it’s the internet so plenty of it’s going to be hate. Every time I see it I’m split between knee-jerk “that’s stupid” and then a begrudging sense of affection for someone’s commitment to pointless contrarianism and quirkiness. With the right mental framing it’s at different times annoying and endearing.
Yeah, this is one of the weirdest things I’ve seen to cause such a significant level of annoyance among so many people
I’m honestly confused how there’s so much actual anger in these comments
I just don’t read their shit.
Can you read it like th? To the same fluency? If not, to what degree?
I certainly can’t read it fluently.
Yeah, I’ve got used to it. It’s not a hard substitution to make, and even if it does take you a little longer to read the comments I guess I don’t see the problem. I’m not in a rush to read online comments, and if I was in a rush I wouldn’t be reading online comments 🤷♂️
Yeah, honestly I think it’s a little dumb, but they seemed to be having fun with it. It’s not even like it’s that hard to read, they put way more effort into it than it takes to read it
We need to be way more ok with people getting a little weird with it
Some people choose a hill to die on. Theirs is apparently sideways
Edit: sorry I meant Þeirs
1+'5 n0 |)1ffr3n + +h4n p30p|3 wh0 u53d +0 +yp3 1n 1337 sp33|<
Can you understand it? Sure. But it inhibits comprehension and distracts from the flow of conversation.
You’re right that’s exactly the same as replacing one grouping of two letters mate
We can all read it as a ‘th’
And for non native English speakers? Or people who have never used it?
I do have a simple solution though, I just don’t bother reading the comments when I see that being used. Problem solved.
I’ve never used it. Jesus man stop whining, you already don’t read the comments like you’ve said. I swear sometimes it seems like people online just desperately need something to moan about.
I don’t think asking about the inclusion of non native speakers is whining, but sure thing buddy 👍
If you really don’t give non-native speakers of English enough credit to use context and their current understanding of the language to learn one more letter, I think that’s pretty exclusionary. People who don’t speak English as a first language aren’t stupid, mate.
sometimes it seems like people online just desperately need something to moan about.
Exhibit A.
What’s the exhibit? Telling someone else to stop whining? 😂
I wish I had noticed i didn’t capitalize every G in my username…
I don’t know somehow GiGa just works but GiGantic wouldn’t have. I think you instinctively made the right choice even if you didn’t mean to
Th, actually. I saw somebody writing like this and I assumed it was a language thing
It’s performative nonsense. Ostensibly anti llm stuff that comes across to me at least as attention seeking
attention seeking
Yep
