Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
00:46 Sponsor: TuxCare Radar
02:23 Windows 11 is failing right now
05:20 What’s the job of an OS?
06:51 Updates break systems. Often.
10:53 You have to adapt to it
15:14 It’s highly intrusive
17:44 Debloating tools don’t make it good
20:19 Windows fails at being an OS
21:33 Alternatives are better, but not perfect
27:23 Windows is a sales platform, not an OS
Dont get me wrong, linux never been this useable ever. But still not complete in my opinion.
I am working 12 hours a day plus 2 hrs commuting, when I get home, I want to chill.
I dont want to deal with package managers, window managers, network/gpu drivers and random asian guys github repository to fix my issues.
I forgot the name but there was a website calling every software shit, I agree with that guy.
We need more professionals working fulltime on linux and distros, more real tech support. Community support doesnt mean anything if no one maintaining it well…
We need more funding on desktop like how tech giants funding ubuntu server.
funny how i never have to deal with “package managers”. i just turn my computer on and use it?
if you want the same proficiency you have on an OS you’ve been using for 30 years, you will have to acquire experience with it too.
make the investment or deal with windows, choice is yours.
I think they made it shitty on purpose so they can roll out a subscription based windows 12 which would be slightly better than 11.
So I am a linux user, but use Windows 11 for work. I am an accountant in the school system.
Windows works fine for my work purposes. Especially when a lot of applications are being removed for web clients. I still use quite a bit of desktop applications, but I see the writing on the wall; soon all my work can be done on any device.
When the desktop application in work spaces finally die, I am curious if industries will switch to linux since its free and can be run on any hardware essentially. That or maybe owners will force their workers to use their own devices (phones, like Samsung DeX) to do work.
It failed. It’s not failing. The fact that it’s still widely used doesn’t make it successful.
I’m a it ops manager and it’s going to take me years to undo the ball of yarn left by their previous ms certified “professionals” . Ms stack allowed them to be easily hacked last year and I’ve no intention of having that be a me problem.
Can I trademark Sloperating System?
I think GN beat you to it
except for the embedded license revenues the multitudes keep paying.
Always has been
I’m a linux user but this is so cringe.
I know this is a Linux space, and I love Linux but my Windows 11 box runs just fine. I haven’t had any problems with it.
Do you work supporting users with windows 11? Print servers? Azure policies?
Windows 11 sucks big donkey dick
I use MacOS and Win11 every single day. I used Linux for a long time, I still have my CD I got from Canonical with Ubuntu 6.06 Dapper Drake LTS. Naturally, fanboys of all three will talk about each as if it were the obvious choice. IMHO they’re all good in their own respective ways. It’s a Venn diagram made up of adoption/support, simplicity, and openness.
I remember those Canonical cd’s, they’d let you request dozens at a time and shipped for free.
Funny story, they shipped them from a place in Switzerland at the time that used to be the address of Sandoz corp where they made LSD. I got a box in the mail and googled the shipping address wondering what this box is and did a huge WTF lol
This year alone I had to reinstall 3 Windows systems that were failing to work. Then again, my Windows 11 work laptop also seems to work just fine.
Sounds like gambling
Well that sucks. I hope everything keeps running from now on.
Yea Linux users don’t seem to value their time. I spent every other evening for a week trying to install fedora. Multiable downloads, different pen drives, formatting using fadoras own tool. I even tried with a different PC. Nothing. Read the forms to see if there is any known issue. Nobody’s got time for that. I’m back with Linux mint on my gaming setup. It hasn’t had that many issues. But the gaslighting people seem to say Linux will run on anything with any thing makes me miss trust anything those people say. I don’t want a suprise failed update or to spend an evening working out the low level boot issue.
What was your problem? I really cannot understand, it should be as easy as downloading the ISO, plugging the flashdrive and then tell to a software like rufus to flash the ISO to the pen drive, you then go in the bootloader, change the boot priority to pen drives and then reboot the PC and should start the installation (or if the distro has the “live enviroment” you can first try out the distro without installing and then install when you feel ready)
That’s what I thought. I was using ventoy, then Rufus, then fedoras own imaging tool. Im not new to this ether Ive installed Ubuntu and Linux mint multiable times. I have ventoy as I like to boot some tools but also proxmox. Windows (as it’s my day job) has given me issues but nothing to the level of fadora.
It would love boot but after a full install it refused to boot. It would post and show a loading message but then it was as it would power off. I can’t remember what the error messages where they flashed on the screen for a micro second then the fans stoped and I would need to live boot again. I assumed some sort of install failure or some setting where I’m forgetting to add the gui or something. I spent more time trying to get it to work adjusting bios settings or different settings on the install. In the end decided that Linux mint was best. I installed it and had it working as expected within 20 minutes.
My main issue is the sentiment that people are afferming here. where any issue like this is the users fault. Or it’s a “skill issue”. I’m not sure how I could have messed it up as it’s the Linux equivalent of burning cereal. After a week of burnt cornflakes I cut my losses.
I installed it and had it working as expected within 20 minutes.
then what is the problem? one solution didn’t work, you tried another and it did?
isn’t that exactly how people troubleshoot windows problems?
I don’t know what you mean by “Nothing” but, I have often failed to have any luck with the automatic partitioning, and I end up doing the partitioning manually. Especially since I almost always separate / and /home onto different physical drives. And doing that, you have to lay out a /boot/efi partition. Without doing that it’ll go through the motions but you won’t get a bootable system.
There are issues with that of course, but for my fedora, Pidoras tools helped identify and fix the compatibility issue
It was probably a compatibility issue. I’m sure if I was more invested I would find a way. I was distro hoping so I wasn’t going to put myself through it. if it had installed it would be a different matter.
Same. Ubuntu didn’t run on my tower only Debian did and then I removed the entire OS and downloaded windows 10 from Microsoft and googled up a product key.
Sometimes you can’t escape the dog shit.
Personally have had more issues with the windows installer than any Linux installer I’ve ever used (on multiple different systems)
Yeah, only that piece of shit will silently set up the bootloader on a whole different drive, leaving you a nice surprise once you remove it some time down the line…
I spent every other evening for a week trying to install fedora.
Skill issue.
Yes, that’s the point, very astute of you. It takes time and knowledge to get good at stuff like this.
Once. It takes time and energy once, because its a new thing. This is true of all new things. If you want to go to a new library, you have to learn the route or address, drive there, get a new card, and find the books/places things are. The dewey decimal system is the same, but no ones really using it and the help desk is likely in a different area.
So, with installing a new operating system, you need to know how to install an operating system, follow the instructions, and then use the operating system.
Its almost exactly the same effort. Some people will need to learn how to drive, or the bus route, or whatever, but thats expected.
Oh hell no it isn’t “once”. I’ve been running Linux machines at home for various purposes for well over a decade and I’m constantly having to learn new shit. Especially because some distros will break things with updates and you’re on your own to figure it out much of the time.
Linux is easier now than it’s ever been but it’s certainly not nearly as user friendly as Windows or Mac. It’s also an intimidating topic to approach with an overwhelming amount of info that the typical the user never needs to think about otherwise (what’s a distro , what DE should I use, how do I install software on my distro, etc). the aggressively unsympathetic community doesn’t help either.
Some of that isn’t the fault of Linux but the truth remains.
People keep saying this, but windows and macos are not user friendly. Theyre user hostile. “No, you cant do that unless you perform a ritual.” “Want to download something? Spend 4 hours typing random terminal commands to maybe get a package manager thats out of date 9/10 times or good luck googling.” “Want to change where your taskbar is? Too bad.” “Want to do literally anything? Every setting is a coinflip between vibecoded settings app, windows 7 legacy menus, or windows xp legacy menus. The latter two work better (and the former is just the latter obfuscated) but are hidden in secret menus. Good luck!”
My 80 year old grandma has no issues at all with her CachyOS/kde/Limine installation, but i used to get calls every other weekend for her windows 11 laptop.
Also, if i need to do anything, i can just ssh into her computer without issue. Ill admit that quick assist is way better here, but the point is that i get significantly less calls because KDE is just intuitive.
Skill issue.
I run two different RPM distro machines. Took me less than forty minutes to install on each (my internet is slow), and one of them is an eight-year-old laptop with an i3 and 8 gigs of memory. All runs fine, had issues with the Bluetooth antenna on one (just drivers).
I had to help a family member set up a W11 laptop, took hours (pre-installed) to sift through all the bullshit settings to make it even function without disrupting every session or literally spying on them.
So, I dunno, maybe you pissed off some witch and got cursed, seems like a pretty exceptional experience you had.
I tried to get Nobara working on my pc and couldn’t do it. I have installed soany forms of Debian/ubuntu and arch. I did get bazzite working, but I didn’t like how locked down that os is.
I like Mint and Fedora myself
I hope you don’t mind me asking, but how is Bazzite locked down? I have never run any Linux as a primary desktop, though I’m relatively familiar with Linux in general from my years of general nerdiness. I recently installed bazzite on a whim on an old laptop as a first step of potentially shedding Windows (because I like games and bazzite says it’s for gaming). I very limited use it seemed fine, but that’s basically been installing a few things and testing a few games.
Bazzite is an Atomic system. Most of it’s files are immutable, and can only be modified with a system update. That’s great for stability and working from a system exactly as tested, but lots of software needs (or wants) to add extra files to the system. In Bazzite you should basically spin up a VM for that (or a toolbox, those are cool), or “layer” it into the system which reduces the stability you get from the Atomic system.
Both VMs and Layering are extra steps and can be complex depending on what you need, so it’s more difficult to do otherwise routine things if you’re not well versed already.
The other option is to make a build of the system yourself where you add the packages, IIRC i saw someone do it in a github repo and then having automatic builds, though i cannot say personally how easy is to do that and IMO it’s just too much work for just installing packages
Thank you! I appreciate you taking the time to educate me.
Yeah Bazzite is irritatingly restrictive, Fedora or Cachy are honestly worth the little extra effort it takes.
I am all in on Cachy. I have installed it on all of my machines and even my friend’s. Cachy just works so well, I stopped shopping around.
Then you’re lucky. Win11 virtually pushed me to Linux, I was a windows fanboy before.
Windows 10 was the last actual Microsoft OS.
I disagree. For me it was Win 7. And even in retrospective I’d say the last truly good and clean system was XP. I had to use it at work a month ago to troubleshoot a system and was surprised how well designed XP was for its time – and still is tbh
I think the general consensus is that windows XP was the last clean and well put together microsoft os that’s the rounded cleaner version of windows 2000.
When windows 7 came out I downgraded back to XP, which with the new file system it’s nearly impossible to pull off. I can’t downgrade anything windows 10 and above and I’d have windows xp partitioned if I could.
I’m not a fanboy, I just use whatever works
No, I was a windows fanboy. Just wanted to emphasise, that even someone as loyal as me got pushed away.
I don’t think it was implied you were.
Maybe it’s because I neutered my W11 and only dual boot to launch the occasional game or Windows specific driver, but… I haven’t had significant issues with W11? Not that I can remember over the past two years.
No broken updates, no weird copilot things, no excessive background usage, nothing. The only maintenance I do is manually updating graphics drivers.
The one issue I had was the LG monitor debacle, that tried to install Mcafee, but that was LG’s fault (and I’m never buying an LG display again, as long as I live. I hope you’re happy, LG marketing).
I find this remarkable, because to me it means, Windows doesn’t have to be junk, yet they deliberately configure it that way, and make it extremely difficult to undo. I used a slew of tools neuter it, but I’d have no idea where to start without them.
And to be clear, I use Linux 90% of the time, so I’m not advocating for Windows or anything.
Maybe it’s because I neutered my W11 and only dual boot to launch the occasional game or Windows specific driver
Yes, it’s that. If you’d use it as your daily driver, you would notice. I do tech support at work and there’s hardly a month that goes by without a Win 11 machine sitting on my desk that has - miraculously! - fucked-up drivers or other issues after an “update”.
Windows updates the computer and I swear my ram speed went down.
I think a lot of the issues people experience on windows can be mitigated by disabling certain things or as you said “neutering” it. Back when I used windows 10 as my main OS, I did a lot of modification to make it better and it was alright, but windows 11 has also experienced a lot more bugs and criticism just being generally worse. Worse resource management, less user freedom, more tracking, more ai, newer CPU requirements, and that’s all just off the top of my head.
a lot of the issues people experience on windows can be mitigated by disabling certain things or as you said “neutering” it.
Wouldn’t it be great if an operating system just worked properly out-of-the-box?
There are Arch distributions that do that better than Windows 11. What’s Microsoft’s excuse?
Preaching to the choir man. I ditched Windows and am better for it. No excuse for microslop to be this bad.
Any neutering tool recommendations?
Honestly I don’t know which projects are up to date, so I’m afraid to recommend what I vaguely remember.
Search GitHub/Gitlab for “windows debloat” or similar concepts, and sort the results by date updated (e.g. the most recent comment). This is precisely what I’d do with a fresh Windows install, anyway.
On top of that, I go through running services one by one and disable the ones I don’t need.
I disable Defender active protection (except for the firewall/anti tamper) as well, as it absolutely tanks the performance of many applications. As one example I measured, it multiplies the startup time for modded Rimworld, and dramatically slows game ticks. It seems to slow Cyberpunk 2077 as well, but not as reproducibly.
Most “debloaters” won’t do this, as it’s generally not a good idea. But I treat my Windows partition as disposable: nothing sensitive stored, no sensitive data accessible on drives nor networks, data on a separate partition. If it was infected, I could wipe it and reinstall without a care.
AtlasOS
There’s a good one called Ubuntu.
I mean, yeah. Though that’s less recommended these days. I run Debian on proxmox for different server needs. And my laptop is fedora bluefin.
Desktop, as infrequently used as it is, still runs Windows for the few times a year when I absolutely need Windows on bare metal. Plus I keep a Windows 10 VM on the server for the one every month or two that I need it. Try as I might to get away from windows, when you’re part of a team, and the only one running Linux, sometimes you get weird incompatibilities, and you just need to do it on Windows 🤦♂️
I would be careful with any “neutering” tools then, depending on your work, because some can mess with Teams, CoPilot, or whatever else you need. Check the options before you run the tools.
Windows Store apps like Teams work fine for me, though, as do IDEs.
I have experienced all of that on my work machine. Its a mess of breakage and glitches and background stalls. Group policy initially stopped copilot but now its back again… And its always just enough to mess up your mouse flow
I recently dumped W11 off my wife’s ROG Ally handheld and replaced it with SteamOS. It’s a day and night difference in performance. ASUS is absolutely fucking themselves by shipping it with this vibe-coded trash OS. W11 is total dog shit. The only good thing it does is drive a lot of people into the arms of Linux.
I have an Ally as well and I doubt the night and day difference claims there. Unless something drastic has changed Linux is at best on parity with windows if you change the ACPI settings manually.
https://www.phoronix.com/review/rog-ally-windows-linux/
It’s not a steam deck that was designed around linux.
Maybe I oversold it but I definitely noticed a difference in both performance and battery life. Windows has no profile for handheld devices and assumes they’re a laptop. With SteamOS it seems to have better battery management, with the added bonus of not being spyware vibe-coded garbage. My wife encountered a handful of “yep that’s Windows for you” type issues and now those are reduced to zero.
Why would people running Linux even care about the success/failure of Windows 11?
Because the worse windows 11 gets and the more people move off of it, the more corporations will be forced to support it with their products. Meaning we won’t have to rely on hacky bullshit to get them to work.
I have a ‘helper’ PC that monitors and downloads and catalogues. I wanted to go to Linux, but after battling with network share access for days I just gave up. Linux needs to be more ‘works out of the box’ but I’m patient.
I actually have to ask: what is something that 'works out of the box '?
Let’s put it this way. To map a network drive in windows: go to PC, select drive and advanced sharing, add user. Then click network, click PC, right click drive and map drive.
Now do that in Linux.
I’m still primarily on windows myself, about 80% of the way to pulling the trigger on switching to Linux as my main driver, but I haven’t been able to work out all the things I need to be able to do yet, and dual booting really isn’t that viable for me because the amount of shit I typically have going at once means rebooting isn’t a trivial process. I’ve found a lot of shit on Linux to actually be pretty simple to accomplish once you know where to look for information, but finding that information can be tricky and that’s what makes the process so frustrating. That said my windows system is starting to have enough problems just running stably that it might force the issue before long.
Windows 11? I haven’t had a serious issue in years.
- I’m not putting 11 on anything of mine after dealing with it at work and on the laptop I ended up switching to Bazzite. It’s atrocious.
Have fun with that. What was the issue at work?
There’s a list but the main themes are the overall degradation in performance when they “upgraded” my PC from 10 to 11 and just how sloppy and half assed it seems to be. The obfuscated settings, the way it constantly seems to be putting itself in the way of whatever I’m trying to do, the spike of anger I get every time I open the start menu… Basically the overall experience just got worse by just about every measure.
On the other hand they finally introduced tabs to file explorer and powershell a decade late so I guess there’s that… Even those are still worse than what 3rd party apps who don’t have billions to spend on development though.
It’s a nice circle jerk, but it has way more market share than Linux (at least on desktop, which y’know it’s a desktop OS), so by that measure it is a “success”.
You have to really stretch to some abstract definition of success to call it a failure.
Version 11 didn’t make that market share happen. It inherited that from win XP
Yes, all those XP machines kept upgrading…
No, the actual market share of Windows 11 specifically, even against other Windows OS’s, far surpasses Linux.
People kept using and buying what they already knew, it’s not that hard to understand. Even if the new installment is shit, it’s still familiar, and for many that goes above any other argument.
Kind of a dubious claim, in the context of Windows not having nearly as much market dominance as they used to, and Linux adoption being far higher than it used to. Linux as a platform now has enough of a userbase that even companies like Epic are beginning to take it seriously.
Meanwhile reviews of Windows these days are so nearly universally poor, they are basically coasting on nothing but the inertia of their own previous success - which is eroding.
Have you watched the video before trying to argue against the title?
Capitalist brain.
It’s a market success and a performance failure. Not much of a stretch of any definition.
I find it pretty good, very stable, no viruses (I think)
WINDOWS 11 IS GREAT IF YOU DONT VALUE YOUR TIME
Even with that caveat I wouldn’t agree.
But there’s something to it.
For me, a decade of Linux user, having been forced to work with a bunch of Windows laptops recently, even the difference between 10 and 11 was palpable. Not only in resource usage but also in just getting around the system, running updates, trying to disable the stock ticker (?WTF?) etc.
trying to disable the stock ticker (?WTF?)
Geeze I should have invested in “?WTF?🔺” years ago. Look how ?WTF?🔺 is everywhere now! Especially the tech industry. 😭
Lately I often reminesce on the time SSD has become available. My previous laptop would take 5 minutes to fully open the system, and suddenly BAM! SSD and it was 30 seconds. I remember being blown away. How the fuck did we end up back here. How is it 5+ minutes to start a stupid OS again.
Dunno, my Linux boots that fast.
I remember that too! My crappy old computer. I bought the cheapest SSD they had and it was so much faster.
And I’ve been thinking about the latter too.
BTW I truly hope your Windows takes 5min for a cold boot, and not your Linux, because that would mean there’s something wrong with it or the hardware.
My work laptop is only allowed windows 11 [*]. At least I work for it on company time.
At least I wait for it on company time.
You think I didn’t?
And yes, the story above was about getting them all up to Win11. It’s sad that IT-illiterates see “let’s do what M$ says” as the only option wrt security.
Windows is great! Unless you value privacy…or RAM… or Bandwidth efficiency…or easy networking… or owning your system
