nobody should have to use c++ anymore now that rust and zig exists
header files are an invention of the devil
Header files are a thing of beauty! Languages that can’t abstract away definitions suck (or are like script languages, which is fine for scripting).
Header?? I barely know her!
C++ is my favorite language I’ve ever programmed in and is not even close, but I spent way too much of my time on code reviews because I couldn’t trust almost anyone I worked with not to create dangling refs, memory leaks, etc
I’ve spent decades programming C++. I wonder how it would’ve been had I started with C++11 or later? I feel like I had to do a lot of unlearning with that release which made things more difficult perhaps that they needed to be?
Similarly, I started Python towards the end of 2 and had to unlearn for 3. I seem to have bad timing in these things…
I have decades of C++ experience. I have never met any C++ developer who hasn’t shot himself in the foot regularly with this damn language.
Developers are the problem. They get language feature envy and so the language they use gets pushed to include the new feature. It’s why a lot of devs hate languages like Go because Go is highly resistant to change. So languages like C++ and C# end up with so many features you can’t possibly know or master all of them.
For some fucking reason devs don’t want to use multiple languages.
My first ever big boy language was C++ (after Basic, and Logo, does anyone remember that lol). I was in middle school, tried to self-learn from learncpp.com, only to realize that I had mostly learned C, with cin-cout instead of printf/scanf. So I just decided to migrate to C. Nowadays, I mostly code in Rust, Go, and Python. But my experience with C has been extremely helpful. Can’t say the same about C++ though.
Was Logo that turtle language?
Yes. IIRC, the flavor that I used was MSWLogo.
Yay, Logo
I used it way too long because my clumsy asa couldn’t get another IDE to work
Yay, Logo
Seriously, three cheers for Logo!
Incidentally, I’ve found that
import turtlein interactive Python opens a pretty good logo clone on most operating systems.Around 5th grade I animated the sinking of the Titanic in LOGO
Memory unlocked!
If you are feeling nostalgic the project is still there, with the same old interface from the past: https://fmslogo.sourceforge.io/
I used Imagine by Logotron (Czech-localized, including keywords - yes, with diacritics) as my IDE, and I still have it installed because the accompanying graphics editor (LogoMotion) is just so good. I never got to the OOP part because the textbook didn’t cover it and there are no materials onlone about the Czech version (not even a keyword dictionary), and I couldn’t speak English back then.
C++ is useful for learning object oriented programming: Describing what really happens in constructors and destructors, the pros/cons of reference counting and how it actually works (using std::unique_ptr)
These are things that most modern languages try to hide/abstract away, but the underlying problems and limitations never go away, but with C++ you’ll have a better understanding of why they happen.
However, if you go down the rabbit hole of Template Metaprogramming, I agree with the original post: it takes decades to learn and really only
usefulexploitable in C++.I don’t disagree that the language is a great way to build an understanding of object lifecycles, but in my experience C++ ctors and dtors are also the biggest source of confusing footguns I’ve ever encountered in any programming language.
Separately, template metaprogramming is a whole different beast. It’s an extremely powerful tool, but to me it also feels like finding the correct incantation to get it to do exactly what you need for more complex scenarios. It can be really fun if you know what you’re doing, but it also tends to make me very upset at the compiler when my incantations are a bit off.
How does unique_ptr teach reference counting? It’s just a way to interface with RAII and move semantics
You’re right. I was thinking of shared_ptr (it’s been a blissful long while since I’ve dived deep into C++ stl and boost)
edit: a word
I’ve always preferred the functional approach to programming, so OOP never really intrigued me. That’s one of the reasons why I never liked C++ or Java, but instantly fell in love with Rust. It lets me do a lot of functional style programming, while still being somewhat practical. (I’m looking at you, Haskell.)
I’ve been a long time believer that some problems are better solved via OOP, others through functional programming. The perfect language would be a successful blend of the two.
Many popular OOP languages are horribly lacking on FP or it looks like an eyesore (golang, python, etc). …and FP languages trying to do OOP are kinda awkwards (see common-lisp).
I thought Crystal Lang (a statically type checked dialect of Ruby) was going to be the “perfect language”… but the compile time performance and the lack of 3rd party libraries (like an aws SDK) really made it hard to use.
Hearing what you said about Rust has renewed my hope.
That said, I did notice that features like Coroutines have been “experimental” for nearly 9 years.
I hope I’m missing something obvious, but how would you create any sort of heavy-lifting, long running, multi-session daemon/application without having some sort of asynchronous mechanism that goes beyond threading (which is limited to the number of cores the host machine is running).
edit: cleaned up a few thoughts (prematurely hit submit)
some problems are better solved via OOP, others through functional programming. The perfect language would be a successful blend of the two.
That was the entire goal of Scala and I would say Scala both accomplished it and is a worse language for doing so. Some OOP principles are just bad, namely subtyping. Rust genuinely does blend OOP and Functional in a better way. Instead of classes and interfaces with lambdas you have algebraic data types and type classes with for loops.
Async has been stable for a long time. Coroutines are just syntax sugar AFAIK.
I don’t think there’s an
std-way of doing it, but the Rust ecosystem has this thing where people usually settle around one library. In this case, it istokio. Afaik, most async stuff is done usingtokio. What littleasyncI’ve used, it’s been usingtokioor some library likeactix-webthat usestokiounder the hood.Also, side note, I never understood the idea of why
golangis ugly. I think it’s fine, except for maybe the repeatedif err != nilguards. Those are ugly. I wish it used additive types for error handling.As a passionate Golang hater, I can gladly explain!
- It’s not just the repeated
if err != nil, even though that’s already bad enough. But the really fucked up part is the:=bullshit. It makes moving code around unnecessarily annoying, and it’s telling that few other languages share Golang’s approach. - The lowercase/uppercase rules for private/public stuff is theoretically not a horrible idea, but it makes the code look much more inconsistent. I find
_much easier to read, and this leaves upper/lower to signal other details. But I see that this is mostly personal preference. - Fairly basic operations take much, much more code than they should (e.g. deserializing JSON while handling extra args, or basic functional operations - though that should change sooner rather than later with the new generic methods, right?)
- The decision to initialize every non-pointer primitive with the “bottom value” (or whatever it’s called again) makes sense in isolation, but it’s really unfortunate that they don’t support additive types, because this means a bunch of common tasks need to use pointers, and unfortunately the type system is worthless when it comes to preventing segfaults caused by bugs with pointers.
- I find that most Go libraries have basically no documentation, if you’re lucky you get an example that might vaguely be related to whatever you want to know. I’ve had much better experiences in other languages.
All in all IMO most Go code is 5x longer than necessary to actually express itself in a readable manner, all because the language still doesn’t have proper error handling or generic support (until recently at least). At the same time it’s fairly inflexible, the type system is still shallow and basic, and it’s still way too easy to shoot yourself in the foot.
The only good thing Go has going is the single file deployments, but I’ll gladly spend one hour of every remaining day of my life setting up containers, if it means I never have to touch anything Go again.
- It’s not just the repeated
Quite a while ago, I wrote this to document my understanding what OOP actually is.
This sentence at the end is interesting:
On the other hand it sounds unlikely that there will be a popular language without object-oriented influences some day, so at least minimal syntax-level support is desirable.
Rust was published like one year later and it can be considered popular by now. Does Rust support OOP via traits? Kind of yes, but so does Haskell with typeclasses.
There is a difference between learning a language and be productive with it, and with mastering a language. Being a good software developer is another thing.
I spent few years using it professionally and mentoring others, but never felt comfortable with it. Small eternities spent fighting the language constructs and solving typing puzzles. My take away is that I could just barely fit the C++ in my head and then there’s no room for anything else. I’m done with it for good.
C and C++ ask the programmer to deal with things themselves that other more modern languages do for you in the language runtime Memory management would be the big one. It’s more to wrap your head around, but if you can do it, there’s potential for more performance. In my mind, it comes down to a trade off between development time versus CPU time, and CPU time is a lot cheaper these days.
Signed, a Java dev
I have decades of C++ experience. I have never met any C++ developer who hasn’t shot himself in the foot regularly with this damn language.
Oh really? I’ve never heard you mention that before /s
Oh f*CK. I’m so sorry. Bad connectivity here, my client kept telling me the posting failed. Obviously it didn’t.
I have decades of C++ experience. I have never met any C++ developer who hasn’t shot himself in the foot regularly with this damn language.
I have decades of C++ experience. I have never met any C++ developer who hasn’t shot himself in the foot regularly with this damn language.
To be clear, the language itself is usually not the big part. You also have to learn the eco-system, libraries, packaging, debugging, etc.
(C++ is still a very “comprehensive” language though)
I have decades of C++ experience. I have never met any C++ developer who hasn’t shot himself in the foot regularly with this damn language.
You can say that again. Lol.
What’s the deal of posting same comment many times?
I think it’s a data race due to packet transfer issues
Did you code your own Lemmy client with C++?
🤣
I have decades of C++ experience. I have never met any C++ developer who hasn’t shot himself in the foot regularly with this damn language.
Most C++ devs blame themselves and not the language though. So it still gets used a lot.
And I fucking love it
I hate java with a passion, C# was fun (but at that time only available through the .Net nightmare) and I grew up with (Turbo ;-)) Pascal and C
So, I’m feeling rather comfortable and at home with C++
I’d like to do a bigger project in Rust once at least, but with my current project already the compile times are between 20/25 to 45mins (depends, if you have the build server available or if you need to make up with the IPC).
so, I guess, those iterations would become even longer with RustBut I’m also having the advantage, that my applications are running very, very isolated. So I don’t really need to take care about exposure and attacks.
Still… Finding a memory leak or some shared memory fuck up is everything but fun…
Especially as most of the logic runs in kernel space and debugging possibilities are mostly reduced to traces/log files
Still, I love it
Maybe it’s because of the thrill ;-)As an oldtimer myself you portray it perfectly!
Cheers from another java loather 😁
But it’s the funniest language IMO, you can do frigging anything with it.
Which is why it causes problems of course.
I need to find the nut meme about programming languages again
Edit: Well this meme at least gets the gist of it
Ooh been there done that, but with opengl, lol memories…
