Its actually not racism to call them orcs. Its actually super valid to fearmonger about how the evil slavic horde is just foaming at the mouth ready to invade the entire world, despite the fact France has invaded more places since the 90s.
Misuse of the word “racist” aside, if you’re generalizing about the inherent qualities of the Russian people, that’s still bigotry. If you’re calling out negative aspects of their laws, government, or culture, that’s not bigotry, that’s constructive criticism. If you’re pointing out the mistakes of their history that’s education to bring awareness and hoodlums prevent recurrence. If you’re calling all speech that is negative in any way about Russia “russophobia”, or “racism”, regardless of the nature of that speech, then you’re a Russian apologist and stooge.
It’s pretty simple: speech that displays mistrust, dislike, or hate for the inherent traits of a people is bigotry. Speech that displays mistrust, dislike, or hate for ideals and actions is just disagreement/politics.
But that is not the case, and you could measure the hypocrisy using cold hard data. Just compare how liberals talk about the USA and USAians during the invasion of… well pick any, vs how liberal talk about Russia and Russians. It’s measurably different by like an order of magnitude. Not to speak of the governments reaction and sanctions and support for weapons. When I see lemmy liberals advocating for donating vast amount of weaponry to e.g. Iran I’ll reconsider. Actually advocating for that is probably illegal where you live though.
Russian bot accounts be like
Proving the meme correct, lmao
Idk I just find it weird how every time Ukraine blows Russian infrastructure all the anti ukraine and pro Russian memes show up
“Russian Infrastructure” and its murdered kids in a dormitory. ‘israel’ tier
I don’t see the connection, opposition to Kiev and critical support for Russia is an ongoing thing. You still proved OP correct by dehumanizing them.
it sounds like you need expand your news sources outside of the western echo chamber.
Why do you constantly make memes about fake scenarios that make you mad?
You’re like one of those MAGA raving lunatics making up stories about “liberals.” The only difference is that instead of also coming up with fake ragebait scenarios about trans and gay people you make up bullshit about other leftists like anarchists. Are you a fed? Are you purposefully trying to stir up division?
Step outside, take a breath, stop focusing on hatred and start focusing on building community with good people. It’ll make you happier and it’s much more effective praxis than whatever the hell this kind of posting is
The OP post is not a fake scenario. There are examples of liberals advocating for anti-Russian racism in this very thread. It’s rather amusing that you would compare OP to MAGA when the group that best represents the liberals in the meme are Blue MAGA (at least when it comes to USians, as there are countless frothing Russophobic Euro-libs too). This “division” is not being “stirred up” by OP, it is already a readily apparent and prominent source of political animosity in the real world as well as here on lemmy. The position a person takes on this issue also says a great deal about their understanding of geopolitics. Are you a fed, or are you really that ignorant?
My response is more an accumulation of frustration with OPs frequent posts which are almost always negative and often against constructed straw-man “anarchists”
Thats the division i was talking about.
As for blatant racism, Im sure there are people on lemmy who are racist but i haven’t run into any that i could remember. (There were no racist comments on this post when i initially commented)
Now just because I can’t remember seeing any doesn’t mean its not a problem; since im not Russian, its likely i dont notice it as much as someone who is russian would.
On that note, I can say that ive seen plenty of posts that are “racist” towards “amerikkkans” calling US citizens less than human or monsters or that “nothing of value would be lost” if a state or city in America was destroyed etc. especially from .ml and hexbear users.
My point of course is not that this equality makes it all justified or that racism or any sort of discrimination based on nationality/race/etc. is okay, but rather that i dont think the racism is due to being liberals. Tribalism is just a widespread human condition and you’re on a platform with humans.
Anyway the main point of my comment was to state my frustration with constant negative posts like this which stereotype or exaggerate the actions of others.
These posts don’t help with building unity. They dont help educate anyone. And so they dont solve any problem or serve any productive purpose. Instead they actually further drive tribalistic urges by pushing an us-vs-them situation, and most of the people engaging with posts like this wont be doing so for friendly or productive reasons. So the entire point of these kinds of posts is to further disharmony
Theres enough bad shit going on all around us constantly already, we don’t need any more drama stirred up internally. (Again most of my frustrations are with the frequency of OPs negative/agitation-focused memes not specifically this one in particular)
If you are dealing with racism or harassment of any kind or notice someone else facing the same, you should report it to the moderators
this is about liberals, not anarchists or other leftist. although from my personal experience ive seen ultra leftists and anarchists do the same shit, pretty rarely tho
Yeah constructive criticism like calling them
the slavic hordethe vile hununtermenschenorcs or making up stories about them not having paved roads or flushing toilets. The enemy is weak and also strongHey mate jsyk i think you replied to the wrong comment
From the context im guessing you meant to reply to kryptonianCodeMonkey since he’s the only comment mentioning “constructive criticism”
Thanks for the heads up
Yeah you know about these Russians, right??
With their…
Blonde hairs and their… wide stance
?
Anybody?
Orcs.
I feel the ‘orcs’ that Ukrainians use is more like the nationalistic '‘kraut’ or ‘boche’ from WW1&2
You’d have to bend yourself into a singularity if you want to equate that to racism
I feel like the dehumanising term for the enemy that the ukrainians use is more like the nationalistic dehumanising terms that were used in the old days
Yeah wow you got me there, that’s not at all you making my point for me. As we all know the nationalism of the european empires was totally non racist.
Russians adversaries getting named Ivan (by US) or Russki (by Germans) could be a bit derogatory but would you really consider yourself racist for it? It’s more like Shelbyville thing
There’s “those darn Russkies” and then there’s “those filthy fucking orcs”, and when the latter is being said by a guy with a sonnenrad tattooed around each nipple I’m not inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt.
This pejorative is good and not at all dehumanising because of another pejorative which I also feel like is good.
Behold: The height of liberal intelligentsia.
The amount of pretzels that could be made from your linguistic twistings would feed the world. Instead of just accepting that yes you have dehumanising language and yes the rhetoric about russians is racist, you instead end up in a situation where you have to end up justifying various pejoratives.
Calling russians Ivan isn’t racist at all, just like how referring to indians as “pajeets” is totally fine as well.Not that this has anything to do with my initial statement which was that russians are called “orcs” a fantasy race of evil destroyers. You trying to move the goalposts and change the subject is obvious and sad. Instead of trying to find other pejoratives that you think aren’t really that bad how about you try to relate to what is written?
Not being able to admit to any fault is a sign of a deeply unhealthy mind.Change the subject? I’m directly addressing the use of ‘orcs’ and whether it is, indeed an ethnic slur or not. So maybe the fact you need to misquote me to try and wiggle your point fits that accusation better instead, lol
Do you think you could visually distinguish a Russian from a Ukrainian?
“directly addressing” is when you try to argue about a bunch of other slurs instead of actually talking about the one at hand - And other poor rhetorical tricks you can learn on reddit.
Maybe try starting a sentence with “I dont think calling Russians orcs is dehumanising or racist because…” and then find some other argument than “because i dont find slurs racist in general”.
Better yet you could also start a sentence with “youre right, now that I think about it, calling a group of people by the name of Tolkiens evil race of malignant industrialists, is probably not too good. It is kind of othering - i mean its literally calling them not human. That’s probably some sort of racism. Seeing as how my question was just what racism was directed towards Russians and you gave me an example, that probably the end of our interaction. Id have to be super weird in the head if I were to try to turn this into some sort of debate. Anyway thank you.”
So maybe the fact you need to misquote me to try and wiggle your point fits that accusation better instead, lol.
Maybe the fact my paraphrasing is an accurate synopsis of your world view means something, since youve not engaged with it beyond this one vague comment just here. Did the mirror i held up your racist redditor face sting?
Do you think you could visually distinguish a Russian from a Ukrainian?
Oh since they look like each other they cant be othering or doing racism. Ill have to inform the Hutus and Tutsis of this. Ill have to send a postcard to the Yugoslavian delegation.
Do you think aesthetics is the only thing determining racism? In Europe people are racist as fuck towards romanians, the Polish, eastern Europeans in general, despite them all being white and generally looking like so many other Europeans. When i was a kid italians were still seen as an exotic other and the memory of the spanish guestworker was still recent.
The fact some people look alike does not mean they cannot be othered, which Ive made clear to you a bunch of times already. Just because people look alike doesnt mean you cant be racist towards them.You also seem to be stuck on the idea of this being exclusively something ukrainians say, despite this being introduced by no one but you. Yet another sad attempt at moving goalposts. Plenty of people call Russians orcs, plenty of people fearmonger about them. OP didnt make a post titled “ukrainians specifically are racist towards Russians”. And the rhetoric online about Russians is racist. You just refuse to see it. When it is pointed out to you, you get very defensive. One can guess why.
Of course you already understand this. You started out by asking how someone could be racist towards Russians, yet very answer has just led to you trying to show off your poor debate skills, rather than what a normal person would do - acknowledge and appreciate the answer to their question.
Its pretty clear what youre trying to do and pretty sad you suck so much at it.
One could make a flowchart that would predict your behavior, its so cookie-cutter.
Their vile racism, our playful bywords
You might want to enlighten yourself by talking to some Ukrainians and Russians though.
They almost invariably see themselves as the same (ethnic) people
I have spoken to both, but that will always be anecdotal. For Russians this is pretty much always the case so far as I can tell, they don’t see Ukrainians as a separate people at all. And yes, it is also true of some Ukrainians. Yet there is a very large contingent of Ukrainians whose entire identity hinges on them hating and distancing themselves from Russians. A major aspect of the tensions between eastern and western Ukraine was that the latter (after fascists solidified their power in the 2014 coup) banned the speaking of the more traditional Russian way of speaking. The western Ukrainian government also banned (and destroyed) about 19 million books for either being in the Russian language, being Soviet literature, or for covering history they don’t like. There are many Ukrainians including the vast majority of those who have political power in the west, who not only deny that they are the same “(ethnic) people” as Russians, but who vociferously insist that Russians are lesser and to be demonized, even the ones who are literally Ukrainian but identify as being Russian-heritage people (as people in eastern Ukraine tend to identify). Your comment completely glosses over this very apparent and very consequential fact.
I don’t know any Ukrainians who claim, as you say, that Russians are ‘lesser’ in an ethnic sense. It’s always out of contempt for their love of imperialism/subjugation/nationalism and never something ‘genetic’
Do you think you could visually distinguish a Russian from a Ukrainian?
Yeah it’s even more ridiculous to be racist towards only one of them.
“They’re from Russia so they’re bad and now we can easily kill them.” That’s the whole gist. Same playbook with Africans, Arabs, Latin Americans, etc etc.
My dude is spiraling.
They are projecting racism? Against whom?
I think the implication is that strakitar is the one who is “spiraling,” not OP. Amnesigenic is not saying anything about projecting racism.
I like to use it as a kind of gauge. Every time this guy starts spamming we know Ukraine blew up a refinery or something. The more vocal they get, the more damage. But don’t engage too much, we mustn’t feed the trolls.
Taking note of the liberal penchant for frothing racism and hatred of Russians is always apropos because liberals have been continuously frothing with hatred of Russians, especially for the past four and half years. It has nothing to do with recent events, but it is rather telling that you would tie someone’s posting of a meme about continuous liberal racism to the latest Ukrainian atrocity (which was actually the mass murder of students, not just the usual destruction of civilian infrastructure), because yes, those Ukrainian crimes do happen with regularity too.
You take negative feedback as a positive because you’re in a cult. 8 years ago you would have been able to identify this trait in Trump supporters now you’re the same as them.
Go back to Reddit
Feel like we should defederate with them. They have nothing but dog shit takes designed to be divisive.
Lemmy.world can continue to isolate itself, slowly defederating from every leftist instance one by one until the echo chamber is complete, I suppose.
And then it’s just another Reddit
Just go back to reddit.
