• entropiclyclaude@lemmy.wtf
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    45 minutes ago

    These posts. I’m pro China, don’t get me wrong. I can see the advances chinas made I can see the historical patterns of the US.

    Chinas living our ass in industry and tech, but China is still run by a dictator and a despot.

    Don throw the baby out with the bath water. Two things can be true at the same time: both countries have politicians that should eat a dick and choke to death on it.

            • Revolutionary_Apples@lemmy.ml
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              1 hour ago

              Capitalist regimes benefit the capitalist class. Socialist regimes benefit the proletarian class. Monarchies sometimes benefit the people because they focus on suitability. Dictatorships benefit their people by only representing the best of society. Democracies sometimes benefit society by challenging the will of the most productive. Anarchies also sometimes benefit because they provide a lot of civil liberties. Egypt is not the only source of Gold. Anarchy is not the only decent system.

              • StarvingMartist@sh.itjust.works
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                1 hour ago

                My man, I asked for a single government, you get sidetracked? Seriously, find the most squeaky clean government you can and I will show you examples of human nature corrupting whatever perfect system they think they have

          • StarvingMartist@sh.itjust.works
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            13 hours ago

            Great Leap Forward famine Anti-Rightist Campaign Cultural Revolution Tiananmen Square massacre Annexation of Tibet Tibetan uprising crackdown Xinjiang internment camps Xinjiang forced sterilization allegations One‑Child Policy coercive enforcement Crackdown on Falun Gong Great Chinese Famine repression of reporting Hong Kong democracy crackdown Suppression of the 1987–1991 Tibetan protests Strike Hard Campaigns Laogai forced labor system

            Nice troll post, respect the grind

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              6 hours ago

              This is just gish-gallop.

              Xinjiang

              Uyghurs are not being tortured and killed.

              The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.

              I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.

              Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time, yes. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.

              Tibet

              Tibet was a feudal slave society backed by the CIA. The PLA liberated Tibet. Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth:

              Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.” [12]

              Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. [13] Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” [14] In fact it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.

              Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeatedremoved, beginning at age nine. [15] The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.

              In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. [16] The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care. They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord’s land — or the monastery’s land — without pay, to repair the lord’s houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand. [17] Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. [18]

              As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.

              One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.” [19] Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed. [20]

              The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery. [21]

              The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.

              -Dr. Michael Parenti

              Great Leap Forward

              China successfully doubled life expectancy and rapidly developed.

              Falun Gong

              As for the Falun Gong, they are a cult akin to Scientology, not an ethnicity, and the PRC isn’t killing them en masse, just repressing it as an anti-communist and western-funded cult. Same as the idea of Uyghur genocide, atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.

              Tian’anmen

              Of the few hundred people that died in the riots and fighting, the square was dispersed peacefully. The truth about Tian’anmen is that hundreds of protestors and PLA officers were killed in Beijing that day as the PLA advanced towards the square, but that the square itself was evacuated peacefully, which matches leaked US cables and the CPC’s official stance on what it calls the “June 4th incident”. This is a rejection of the commonly reported story of 10,000 people being killed on the square itself, which originated from a British diplomat’s cable. Said diplomat was later confirmed to have evacuated well before.

              Western nations intentionally sensationalize the quantity of deaths and the character of the events. This is also why Western Nations don’t frequently report on the South Korean Gwang-Ju massacre that occured around the same era, where the South Korean millitary murdered thousands of High School and College students protesting against Chun Do-Hwan’s dictatorship. All of what I said is backed up by the Wikipedia page for Tian’anmen Square Protests and Massacre, such as Alan Donald revising his estimate from 10,000 to the low thousands yet BBC continuing to report the 10,000 figure:

              In a disputed cable sent in the aftermath of the events at Tiananmen, British Ambassador Alan Donald initially claimed, based on information from a “good friend” in the State Council of China, that a minimum of 10,000 civilians died,[237] claims which were repeated in a speech by Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke,[238] but which is an estimated number much higher than other sources provided.[239][240] After the declassification, former student protest leader Feng Congde pointed out that Donald later revised his estimate to 2,700–3,400 deaths.

            • m532@lemmy.ml
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              8 hours ago

              Increasing life expectancy ??? ??? Yankee attack Slave liberation Slaver oppression Anti-yankee-terror campaign Adrian Zenz ??? Outlawing of dangerous cia-backed cult Increasing life expectancy British colonist whining ??? ??? Projection

              Now try this for usa&lackeys: genocide in america, genocide in palestine

              Counter those, I dare you

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      6 hours ago

      They aren’t, though. China is a rising socialist state, and the US is a dying, brutal empire run be pedophiles and fascists.

      • Pman@lemmy.org
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        14 minutes ago

        Don’t look at the Uyghur and Tibetan genocides behind the mirror. Look any country that ce realizes power in the hands of few will inevitably have that power used in terrible and stupid ways, you see that with the supreme court and the current president of the US, but you definitely saw it with the Stalin and Mao regimes back in the day and Xi isn’t that much better. Just because you aren’t aware of their expansionish and international bullying tendancies doesn’t mean they don’t exist. You can say that the current US government is bad and still be right about the CCP being bad as well. The best government is one that is responsive to its peoples needs and even if you ignore the genocides above just look at how Xi’s government handled lockdowns where they literally welded people into their apartments to stop the spread of covid, the crackdown on Hong Kong’s protests and free speech over their elected representatives being decided by the CCP and not the people of Hong Kong, the land grabs in northern India, the territorial claims in the south china sea, and all this while their country is suffering a severe economic crisis created by the government central planning and how properties are managed in china. Is there good in China? Yes they have a vibrant tech industry that is able to upgrade GPUs on the fly with more ram or build custom Iphones for example but that doesn’t stop the fact that private messages are scraped and purged if they don’t comport with the allowed speech from the CCP.

        You might think that means I like the current way things are going stateside but that would be wrong, with tech giants asking for legal ID for using your own hardware, for backdoors in encrypted messaging, for you no longer being able to own what you bought and paid for, means that freedom and privacy seems to be commodities that the rich and powerful, no matter the type of government, don’t want you to have. I can guarantee that the fact that we can’t get universal healthcare in the US has a similar issue in china that they would love to have access to and wouldn’t be hard to implement but would mean that CCP control would be lessened, be it freedom of speech (see Tineman Square protests), freedom of assembly (the same), freedom of movement (see covid restrictions where people were welded into their apartments and certain regions of china (not just military instillations, where people can’t enter or leave such as Xinjiang).

        In short China is what it has always been a land empire in east Asia who forces homogenity in their culture and doesn’t like dissent, but promotes education for at least the ruling class and usually becomes too top heavy and collapses in on itself into civil war that kills millions.

      • KimBongUn420@lemmy.ml
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        4 hours ago

        If Israel treated Muslims in Gaza the same way as China does in Xinjiang (providing education and citizenship), Netanjahu would be hailed to no end

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        5 hours ago

        There is no genocide of Uyghurs. Uyghur genocide atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.

        In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.

        The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.

        I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.

        Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.

          • cornishon@lemmygrad.ml
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            33 minutes ago

            Brought to you by The Human Rights Watch, that voraciously peddled the “babies thrown out of incubators in Kuwait” to justify American Intervention™

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            4 hours ago

            HRW is a pro-western think tank that frequently cites CIA cutouts like Radio Free Asia. Looking at this document, for example, you can see that it frames public ownership of news media as inherently bad and capitalist news as inherently good. It also frames China as anti-democratic, when it is widely seen by its own citizens to be very democratic:

            Overall, you’re just grabbing an anti-communist tool of western governments as a cudgel to bash China. Are there real problems in China? Yes. Is it a “horrible country?” No, far from it, and it’s far better than western imperialist countries that export genocide and plunder the global south.

            The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy.

            The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Moreover, the economy in the PRC is socialist, with public ownership as the principle aspect of the economy. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.

            I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.

            • Aagje_D_Vogel@lemmy.zip
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              3 hours ago

              China isn’t socialism, it’s communism. The people might think it’s a democracy, but a fair share of propaganda probably helped them see it that way.

              Having a single party political system is not democratic.

              Having a single person with absolute authority is not socialistic.

              • AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml
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                36 minutes ago

                It’s always amazing to me how these people who have done zero investigation have the sophomoric nerve to speak as if they’re educating other people in the middle of having information poured over their heads with a bucket

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                2 hours ago

                China is socialist, not yet communist. It’s run by a communist party, but there is still class struggle. In China, public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, but there are still other forms of ownership. Communism will exist once all production and distribution has been collectivized.

                Secondly, propaganda doesn’t work that way. Read the sources, people believe China is democratic because it is. It has elections, and consultative democracy where the will of the people directs policy. The people rule the system in China. You’re confusing liberal democracy for democracy in general, but what’s interesting about liberal democracy is that really it’s just democracy for capitalists. Having a single main party but broad consensus-building and polling to direct policy is more democratic than picking between a handful of capitalist dominated parties. Plus, China has 8 parties in addition to the CPC that form the government. Finally, there’s nobody with absolute authority in China, so I don’t know what you mean by this.

                Overall, I think you’re very confused about socialism and communism, and China in general. Where did you get these ideas from?

  • Democracy is only as good as the voters. The average Chinese is better educated and a better citizen overall than the average USAmerican. Thus the difference in results. My experience with Chinese and USAians confirm this, even if anecdotal. I could have just missed the bad Chinese and was overexposed to bad USAians.

    • davel@lemmy.ml
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      49 minutes ago

      Democracy is only as good as the voters.

      I wouldn’t know. I’ve never lived in one.

    • Bilb!@lemmy.ml
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      15 hours ago

      I am deeply concerned that this is getting worse, not better. I sincerely hope I’m totally wrong about this, but I see young “educated” Americans more and more being unable to think at all. The kids in university now are liberally using commercial LLMs to finish assignments. People are surrendering their ability to think to private corporations. Imagine in 10 years from now, a man who can’t pay his AI bill can no longer survive on his own. And even if he could, he could only ever do what the corporate model deems acceptable. Just fully giving up agency because agency is friction.

      I can’t respond to this email without paying Sam Altman! I can’t wipe my ass without Grok!

      I’m drunk. I’m sorry. I hate what is happening, and I am helpless to stop it.

    • DornerStan@lemmygrad.ml
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      17 hours ago

      Also bourgeois/liberal democracy is the quintessence of adopting democratic aesthetics, forms, and language without any actual democratic function. No one can vote according to their interests, and no one’s votes actually influence policy.

      The reason most modern imperialist states have evolved their own form of liberal democracy is because of how effective it is at mediating domestic capitalist contradictions so they can be externalized.

      If the US were somehow a true functional democracy it would have evolved beyond capitalism decades ago.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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        14 hours ago

        “To decide once every few years which member of the ruling class is to repress and crush the people through parliament - such is the real essence of bourgeois parliamentarianism, not only in parliamentary-constitutional monarchies, but also in the most democratic republics.”

        ― Vladimir Lenin, The State and Revolution

  • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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    1 day ago

    Ngl, the fact that the US lied about masks and had such a clusterfuck response while China listened to the science was a major step in me becoming China-pilled.