There is no evidence of cooperatives being capable of out-competing the megacorps of today in a system already controlled by megacorps. There is no growing systemic pressure for cooperatives to overwhelm megacorps, only further proletarianizaton and social stratification.

Nature tells you the power of cooperative working, look at ants, bees, fungi. The fediverse is a smack in the face of Reddit, Unix in the face of Microsoft. These things only grow, never shrink. There are more people in credit unions in America than any private bank. There are so many cooperatives in the agriculture space you wouldn’t believe. Look up mondragon, the largest cooperative employer with over 70k employees. Look up IFFCO, the largest agriculture cooperative connecting farmers in India, which has a revenue of over $7 billion/yr. These are behemoths, a force for good. They are not being overwhelmed by megacorps, rather they overwhelm the megacorps.

That sounds lovely to me!

You are correct, we are already in Capitalism. Replacing the entirety of the firms within a Capitalist system with cooperatives is a monstrous task without first overthrowing the State to help facilitate things

Disagree, cooperatives already exist. Everywhere! We just need more and more, one at a time. Bigger and stronger! Where is the need to overthrow the state?

Secondly, I do not want to start over. I want revolution, then a nationalization of key industries like the banks, railroads, airlines, energy sector, raw materials, telecommunication, etc. Not a replacement, but a nationalization. Additionally, large firms will be nationalized, ie Amazon, Google, Meta, Nvidia, other huge firms that dominate the private sector will be folded into the public.

And I want the same level of nationalization as you here, but you are still asking for a revolution as a starting point, i.e erase the entire drawing board and start over.

What is a free market and how will it cease to exist? I can still make any cake and sell it to anyone at whatever price. Free market still exists.

You’re the one in the fantasy land. We’re already in capitalism, I’m only adding cooperatives, you know the whole workers owing the means of production that you advocate for. I’m literally taking us from where we currently are to a better place, A to B. You want to erase the whole drawing board and start over.

My brother, I gave you a version of capitalism where workers globally own the means of production. We’ll even put measures against monopolization, labor exploitation, and short term profit seeking. Hell even add 100% taxation over a billion dollars so nobody gets too big. You’ll still won’t like it because it ain’t communism.

The problem of ‘growing big’ has to be solved via cooperatives operating in the same markets, not by disbanding the entire system.

The purpose of Capitalism systemically is Capital accumulation and the increase in profits through the general process of converting money into commodities in an endless loop.

I disagree. The purpose of capitalism systemically is to simply allow for value creation for the entire ecosystem (customers, employees, vendors) and give anyone the individual freedom to do so.

Current Western flavor of capitalism has allowed short-sighted greed to take over because Wall St demands so.

On an ideological level, you and I are the same - community over commerce. I support capitalism only under such principles.

Greed is not the cause of capitalism. Capitalism exists to create value for society. My grandfather, an immigrant, opened a bakery 50 years ago to serve his community and raise his family. I, an immigrant, opened a grocery store 10 years ago to serve my community and raise my family. Capitalism can be honest & hard work. In both cases, community over profits was a core principle.

Greed comes with accumulation and has to be restrained.

First, don’t point your finger at capitalism as the problem.

You already lost me

I know, many here have have an automatic trigger on ‘capitalism’, but I appreciate you trying. I will try to respond sincerely.

Second, acknowledge & understand greed and how it is inherent in all human nature.

I would rather acknowledge and encourage humans inherent nature to cooperate and grow together.

Me too! Cooperation is the good against the evil of greed. But greed still exists, you can’t wish it away, you have to strategize against.

Third, build systems that minimize the damage done by individual or corporate greed.

Like building an economy that doesn’t inherently reward greed? I wonder what that would look like.

Greed is rewarded in every economy.

Check against consolidation, monopolization, and short term Wall St like thinking of endless growth.

These things exist because of capitalism

No, they exist because of greed & corruption and failure of systems to contain those things.

Four, make sure socialist programs exist to support everyone

That’s social welfare. Being socialist means the workers own the means of production

No, socialist systems like free housing, healthcare, education can exist alongside capitalism. Worker owned systems like cooperatives still operate in a market.

capitalism is not the only way to live, it’s optional

It’s so easy to live in the USA and just not do capitalism /s

It’s impossible in the USA, I’m with you.

the European nations seem to be doing things quite alright

Do you understand that their wealth was pillaged from the global south?

Yes, the British East India company uprooted my own ancestors and erased all culture. I’m against imperialism as much as you, but this has nothing to do with it.

Can you give me a description of what makes socialism bad solely based on how it works (not referencing any country who may have attempted it)?

1. Lack of standardization means you can’t be sure of what you’re getting. Is the milk from this farmer as good as the other farmer?
2. Same price for same good means lack of incentive to improve / innovate. Why grass feed your cows when milk will only sell for a set fixed price?
3. Markets will still exist, you can’t wish them away. It’s human nature. I want to make cake and feed you, but I still need to buy the ingredients, invest the capital, take the risk. Capitalism just rewards that risk.
4. Greed still exists, maybe I can add a little water to the milk, huh, who will ever find out?
5. Corruption still exists and without checks & balances, a centrally controlled system is very likely to being corrupted at the core.

To your first point, let’s pretend you’re right and look at it in the abstract. What is to be done? Do you want to kill greed? How would you do that?

You’re getting somewhere! First, don’t point your finger at capitalism as the problem. Second, acknowledge & understand greed and how it is inherent in all human nature. Third, build systems that minimize the damage done by individual or corporate greed. Check against consolidation, monopolization, and short term Wall St like thinking of endless growth. Four, make sure socialist programs exist to support everyone, and capitalism is not the only way to live, it’s optional. When you think like that, the European nations seem to be doing things quite alright, but they are still vulnerable to greed. And so they must be vigilant against greed, not capitalism.

Greed, not capitalism is the root of evil. Fight me.

Look what I found - https://lemm.ee/post/54651420

Hugs to you. I’ve migrated once but that was 2 decades ago. Now I have family & teenagers who I can’t up & move easily and who still look forward to a future in America. I worry too.

Maybe humans go extinct, maybe they don’t, I never made any claims about it. But that your worrying makes no difference to nature and systems bigger than your individual control. I prescribe hope instead of gloom for reasons of self preservation.

I’m fully agreeing that climate change is a terrible and genuinely upsetting thing. But know that the animal in you wants to instinctively react to fear, and doesn’t want you to listen to reason. Only you can control this animal. Know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum (it’s from a song). Our ancestors lived in caves, lived through feudalism, through centuries of egomaniacal kings and ignorant masses, and sword fighting, and disease, and famine, you and I still made it here to exchange messages on the fediverse. I will not bet against human resilience and spirit of cooperation, which incidentally is also something you will realize is fundamentally human when you look deep in the mirror.

Depression is a natural state of deep self-reflection amidst conflict, a mirror so to speak that helps you understand who you are, and as an extension, understand what it means to be human. The way out is only when you’ve figured the underlying root cause of that conflict. What is anger, what triggers this anger, what are insecurities, what motivates you into action and what paralyzes you into inaction. Maybe not depression, but deep self reflection is a necessary path to self actualization. It took me many years in depression to realize the conflict is internal and eternal. That there is an animal in all of us that is that is reactionary and instinctive and is easily triggered by rage, anger, & fear and that all reason and logic hides behind this animal. That when we see the whole world turn into animal, our fears revive the animal in us. Like game theory predicts, when you become selfish, I become selfish. That explains all conflict in the world and I mean all conflict. You may gain clarity and find yourself out of conflict and depression, yet it can still be upsetting to see the current state of the world. And I will say that despite all the terrible news these days, I’m still optimistic about humans doing alright in the long run, afterall we’ve survived so far and our ancestors have gone through much much worse.

I’m referring to kids before even going to school. Ego / identity develops in kids by around age 5, that’s when they see the I separate from the rest, they see the difference between what they have and what others have, they find this identity that only belongs to them in this sea of identities and they adjust and they react. I’m not sure if you’ve talked to kids before age 5, I’ve raised a few kids, and so I’m talking from experience.

Humans by default want to love one another unconditionally. It is how kids are, it is how our pets are. It is our biases and prejudices and labels and insecurities and traumas that have made our love for one another conditional. The whole world needed a big hug after the pandemic. We didn’t get one. We saw powerful propaganda being an effectual tool in sowing discord, and it worked by appealing to our individualism, incorrectly overriding collectivism. With the visible rise of individualism worldwide, we’re all shriveling in our lonely corners, unloved. Everyone is, not just those choosing the individualism. The world needs loving. Here’s a hug for everyone who reads this comment. I love you unconditionally.

Not sure why what? Btw I found this to add to the discussion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swpR41pRdMA - it seems market socialism is compatible with Marxism - markets existed before capitalism and will exist in market socialism too, while planning could be a mix of central and local.