I don’t ever ask someone’s pronouns, but I’m part of a community that happens to attract a fair few enbies and trans people. Without explicitly asking, I and my fellow longer-term members of the community make a very careful effort to get people’s pronouns right. Usually I make a judgment call based on how they present, and if I’m unsure I’ll use “they” until/unless corrected.
I think the important thing to remember is that the “culture war” we see exported from America is not people asking for or trying to use others’ preferred pronouns. The culture war is the idea that doing the aforementioned (which is really just one specific example of “treat others with kindness”…it’s not a big deal) is something to get angry about or to specifically avoid doing to make a political point. In other words, the culture war is not created by the left or by trans or gender nonconforming people; it’s a war invented by the bigoted right.
I try to use gender neutral language in general until I know better. I will use they/them by default, and use collective words like “folks” that don’t indicate gender. This only ever pisses off bigots.
“partner” is such a perfect term too. It means exactly what the person is whether you’ve been too broke to marry, have strong opinions about marriage, can’t marry, been married for decades, will get married at some point, don’t feel like going through the hassle of marriage, aren’t ready to marry etc. about the only time “partner” doesn’t fit is when it isn’t a committed relationship or stuff is completely on the rocks/falling apart
Like, I adore my wife and family and there’s something special about specifically getting yo call your partner your wife/husband, so I’ll use primarily gendered language for my household, but everyone else I’ll generally default to gender neutral language (and “partner” for folks partners because I dont know everyone’s marriage/relationship status) and nobody seems to even notice (it’s almost like pronouns are just part of the English language and not inherently political!)
I recently met a group of people who are close friends with my close friend, and the majority of them did not identify with the pronouns I’m accustomed to assigning based on sight/presentation. And it was challenging to give the level of respect I wanted to, because habits are strong.
I’ve met transpeople numerous times in the past, but they all identified one way or another, so that was pretty easy to respect. NB/agender is MUCH harder to get used to. So I think thats going to be my new holy grail; treat everyone as a default human until they tell me they prefer something else.
Yeah, in my experience most people accept that you simply try.
I’m in my 30s, I grew up in a small town where people were just not exposed to things. I won’t be perfect by default, but I promise I’ll try my best to use your pronouns.
I think the idea of people raging about it is a right wing straw man — or just purposeful harassing someone until they get mad that you’re obviously trying to harass them.
I’m guessing based on your instance that you’re also Australian and at least part of your experience matches mine.
There are trans and queer folk in my social circles and I was introduced to them. No need for anyone to ask in that scenario is there?
Otherwise how someone presents is enough. A correction won’t kill anyone if I ever get it wrong.
The culture war has two sides as all wars do. It has the bigots and unfortunately people who get real upset when you won’t “say the line”.
No one asked, no one sought clarity, surely our culture must mirrors theirs! Not having people asking pronouns must be because I’m Nazi and not because everyone I’ve ever met used common sense on the topic.
Just attack a viewpoint immediately because “the line” wasn’t uttered. It is a culture war and I want nothing to do with it because it’s very un-Australian.
Anyone can be a mate, so the American culture crap can fuck right off.
I think a lot of the culture war outrage is made up straw manning.
I’ve never met a non binary or trans person in real life who actually gets mad if you make a pronoun mistake, as long as you correct and try to do better.
It’s less a culture war as it is a bunch of assholes harassing gay/non binary/trans people for their own amusement. Then there are a few rare and incredibly trollish chronically online culture warriors in the left who don’t really represent reality at all.
Well, sure. But there are two sides to the Israel-Palestine war, or Russia-Ukraine. But in both cases, it’s one side choosing for the war to happen, and the other side defending its own right to exist against hostile imperialism and aggression. Two sides existing doesn’t mean two sides both share the blame.
I have no desire to bring any foreign wars to our shores. Nor should you.
Depends on what you mean. If you mean literally, then yeah, duh.
If you mean bringing it up in Australia, well…we live in a global world. It’s important that we push our government to do the right thing. That means, at a bare minimum, not selling weapons directly to assist in wars of aggression and genocides overseas, and not inviting heads of state of genocidal regimes to be guests in our country. It also probably means sanctioning the countries responsible, or at least minimising trade with them where possible.
It certainly means not proactively speaking out as the first leader in the entire world to congratulate the genocidal regime and its closest fascist ally on their decision to invade yet another country. Realpolitik might be a thing that’s worth doing at times. But that could at the very least take the form of silence in such a situation, rather than active condemnation. Speaking out proactively in support of it is something every Australian should be ashamed of.
Pro Palestine protestors are not the people “bringing foreign wars to our shores”. The government did that a long time ago.
Not a lecture about Palestine. A lecture about our government, and why people who are opposed to the protests because of bullshit like “they’re bringing foreign wars to our shores” are dipshits who at best just have no fucking clue what they’re talking about. At worst, they’re actively defending genocide. Either way, absolute deadshits.
That’s not you, I hope. Because up until now I had thought we were having a fairly cordial conversation. But that response…well, it doesn’t reflect well on you.
I don’t ever ask someone’s pronouns, but I’m part of a community that happens to attract a fair few enbies and trans people. Without explicitly asking, I and my fellow longer-term members of the community make a very careful effort to get people’s pronouns right. Usually I make a judgment call based on how they present, and if I’m unsure I’ll use “they” until/unless corrected.
I think the important thing to remember is that the “culture war” we see exported from America is not people asking for or trying to use others’ preferred pronouns. The culture war is the idea that doing the aforementioned (which is really just one specific example of “treat others with kindness”…it’s not a big deal) is something to get angry about or to specifically avoid doing to make a political point. In other words, the culture war is not created by the left or by trans or gender nonconforming people; it’s a war invented by the bigoted right.
I try to use gender neutral language in general until I know better. I will use they/them by default, and use collective words like “folks” that don’t indicate gender. This only ever pisses off bigots.
I call my spouse my partner for similar reasons.
If it helps normalize it then at least I’m doing something incredibly small to help people who might face discrimination.
“partner” is such a perfect term too. It means exactly what the person is whether you’ve been too broke to marry, have strong opinions about marriage, can’t marry, been married for decades, will get married at some point, don’t feel like going through the hassle of marriage, aren’t ready to marry etc. about the only time “partner” doesn’t fit is when it isn’t a committed relationship or stuff is completely on the rocks/falling apart
Like, I adore my wife and family and there’s something special about specifically getting yo call your partner your wife/husband, so I’ll use primarily gendered language for my household, but everyone else I’ll generally default to gender neutral language (and “partner” for folks partners because I dont know everyone’s marriage/relationship status) and nobody seems to even notice (it’s almost like pronouns are just part of the English language and not inherently political!)
That’s how I feel too.
When I know people/they know her she’s my wife, but for strangers/coworkers/acquaintances I use partner.
It would feel bizarre talking about her to people who know her and not use her pronouns. But if I don’t have to share that I don’t.
I think I might start trying to do this.
I recently met a group of people who are close friends with my close friend, and the majority of them did not identify with the pronouns I’m accustomed to assigning based on sight/presentation. And it was challenging to give the level of respect I wanted to, because habits are strong.
I’ve met transpeople numerous times in the past, but they all identified one way or another, so that was pretty easy to respect. NB/agender is MUCH harder to get used to. So I think thats going to be my new holy grail; treat everyone as a default human until they tell me they prefer something else.
Yeah, in my experience most people accept that you simply try.
I’m in my 30s, I grew up in a small town where people were just not exposed to things. I won’t be perfect by default, but I promise I’ll try my best to use your pronouns.
I think the idea of people raging about it is a right wing straw man — or just purposeful harassing someone until they get mad that you’re obviously trying to harass them.
I’m guessing based on your instance that you’re also Australian and at least part of your experience matches mine.
There are trans and queer folk in my social circles and I was introduced to them. No need for anyone to ask in that scenario is there?
Otherwise how someone presents is enough. A correction won’t kill anyone if I ever get it wrong.
The culture war has two sides as all wars do. It has the bigots and unfortunately people who get real upset when you won’t “say the line”.
No one asked, no one sought clarity, surely our culture must mirrors theirs! Not having people asking pronouns must be because I’m Nazi and not because everyone I’ve ever met used common sense on the topic.
Just attack a viewpoint immediately because “the line” wasn’t uttered. It is a culture war and I want nothing to do with it because it’s very un-Australian.
Anyone can be a mate, so the American culture crap can fuck right off.
I think a lot of the culture war outrage is made up straw manning.
I’ve never met a non binary or trans person in real life who actually gets mad if you make a pronoun mistake, as long as you correct and try to do better.
It’s less a culture war as it is a bunch of assholes harassing gay/non binary/trans people for their own amusement. Then there are a few rare and incredibly trollish chronically online culture warriors in the left who don’t really represent reality at all.
Well, sure. But there are two sides to the Israel-Palestine war, or Russia-Ukraine. But in both cases, it’s one side choosing for the war to happen, and the other side defending its own right to exist against hostile imperialism and aggression. Two sides existing doesn’t mean two sides both share the blame.
You said it yourself, we don’t need to ask for pronouns and it’s not normal behaviour.
As for the war analogy… I have no desire to bring any foreign wars to our shores. Nor should you.
Depends on what you mean. If you mean literally, then yeah, duh.
If you mean bringing it up in Australia, well…we live in a global world. It’s important that we push our government to do the right thing. That means, at a bare minimum, not selling weapons directly to assist in wars of aggression and genocides overseas, and not inviting heads of state of genocidal regimes to be guests in our country. It also probably means sanctioning the countries responsible, or at least minimising trade with them where possible.
It certainly means not proactively speaking out as the first leader in the entire world to congratulate the genocidal regime and its closest fascist ally on their decision to invade yet another country. Realpolitik might be a thing that’s worth doing at times. But that could at the very least take the form of silence in such a situation, rather than active condemnation. Speaking out proactively in support of it is something every Australian should be ashamed of.
Pro Palestine protestors are not the people “bringing foreign wars to our shores”. The government did that a long time ago.
Yeah thanks for the unnecessary lecture on Palestine.
Not a lecture about Palestine. A lecture about our government, and why people who are opposed to the protests because of bullshit like “they’re bringing foreign wars to our shores” are dipshits who at best just have no fucking clue what they’re talking about. At worst, they’re actively defending genocide. Either way, absolute deadshits.
That’s not you, I hope. Because up until now I had thought we were having a fairly cordial conversation. But that response…well, it doesn’t reflect well on you.