Hello Linux community.
I’d like to take a moment to explain what I hope will be a simple concept (so really it’s more of a reminder) that everyone should say least know and understand.
Not everyone (myself included) learns best by RTFM. Some of us need a guiding hand or to watch a video instead. It’s not that we’re lazy or don’t like reading, it’s just that it doesn’t work efficiently enough.
As a rule I don’t tell people to RTFM, because it has some rude dismissive connotations, although I will share when it helps me solve a problem I’ve been butting up against that would’ve been solved if I had just read the docs.
That being said, I do encourage people to read the docs, as others’ walkthroughs can be misinformational, and are usually tied to specific setups or software and hardware versions. It requires learning how to wade through a lot of information to find the info you need, but the info is usually guaranteed to be the most current and reliable.
That all being said, I’m more than happy to help when people want it.
For me RTFM just means “show us you tried something yourself before reaching out for help”. In other words that you tried putting some work in and not just trying to get someone else to do your work or thinking for you.
I’m very happy to help someone willing to learn, but detest helping someone too lazy to do anything themselves.
Long time linux user: The worse problem is they don’t even tell WHICH manual is relevant to the issue.
“How do I make my secondary drive auto-decrypt?” “RTFM”
Could have at least said “man crypttab 5” so that I don’t have to waste 3 hours just trying to find the starting point.
“They”. That’s one sort of people who does RTFM the wrong way in my opinion. If I do RTFM, even for obvious simple ones, I most likely point to where to look at, ideally with a link. I do not RTFM literally, but saying there is some documentation and pointing to it usually. To me just saying RTFM (literally with this acronym) is rude, especially if someone already struggles and asks basic questions. Not everyone is “they”.
Tealdeer.
NOBODY LEARNS BEST BY RTFM BUT WE DO IT ANYWAY SUCK IT UP
There’s a manual?
RTFM is mostly a flex that people who got help before you are now referring to because they are already on the boat.
That said, a rudimentary Web search or maybe a llm question, might be in order before asking. You also learn more when you get those little successes by yourself.
While I agree that a little search is good for everyone, if no one asks questions publicly then no one has anything to find. I don’t trust llm accuracy so I don’t recommend that.
While not a reliable source on its own, it can usually point you in the right direction.
additionally, and i’m sorry to say this, the fm often sucks. me being an enterprise architect by (one of my) trade(s), would usually benefit from an architecture or a systems sequence diagram… well this is rarely there :D and i’m saying this being a guy who originally learned to linux by methodically reading through, processing, and trial-and-erroring the complete set of man pages of my first distro, back in 97 or whatever.
Not to mention, RTfM is not always possible for some distros like NixOS where the documentation is weaker than for other more mainstream distros.
then you might be in over your head and shouldnt use what you are not able to use
That’s a round about way of saying RTFM, but even less welcoming. Probably not the kind of thing anyone should be told…
With NixOS source code is the manual!
What are you talking about?, NixOS documentation is one of the best ones around, not to mention that with just being pointed to the approximate direction of something and having a good text editor you can figure out things quite easily and without risk of breaking your system. I’ve recently switched from Arch and honestly as good as documentation is on Arch, I prefer NixOS one.
Sure if it’s in the Wiki the documentation is not too bad. But just looking for the documention of the lib functions via DuckDuckGo is somehow really hard. And if it’s not in the Wiki or you want the home-manager module, I’ll basically default to first looking at the options on 3rd party websites and then reading the source code for them. (Also the NixOS wiki is obviously not as comprehensive / big as the Arch Wiki)
Are you not aware of https://search.nixos.org/options or https://nix-community.github.io/home-manager/options.xhtml ? You can search all available options, sometimes with links to the docs for the thing they set for extra context. Those are both official docs and are derived from the code that you’re already looking at.
I am talking from experience here. Some of the documentation is out of date, some is meant for Channel NixOS installs and not so appropriate for Flake-based installs.
Most of the fixes for my issues I find across NixOS discourse forum posts, or in the subreddit of the other platform. The Wiki/official documentation is not enough.
I’m glad you switched to NixOS (welcome!) but this is gap in documentation is something that will become more apparent over time. The NixOS official wiki ironically often links to Arch wiki to explain certain concepts further.
What am I missing? There should be no difference from “normal” to flake installs on anything NixOS related, only in syntax of the language itself since you’re wrapping things. I’ve gone flakes and now somewhat dendritic and haven’t had to check NixOS docs for anything (only nix language docs and other people’s configs to see how they solved certain language specific peculiarities)
Uh… is the NixOS documentation “one of the best around” or have you never checked it? It really can’t be both.
Understand, I’m not trying to criticize NixOS. I use NixOS exclusively and it’s my daily driver. But the documentation really isn’t all there, and it’s not centralized. The best solutions you find across forums, blog posts, random wikis, and by checking other people’s configs like you said.
But yes, the fact you can test things without fear of breaking your system allows you to make hundreds of mistakes stress-free. That’s one of the best features about NixOS.
Not working efficiently enough is the key. RTFM is a skill and it takes patience and practice. Investing that time is worth it as it is ultimately the fastest way. And you learn peripheral information along the way. If getting the job done now, then do what works for you.
I would however warn against watching video. Watching videos is the slowest way to learn something. Think about how often you watch at 4x only to jump around and miss what you are looking for. Compare that to using a wiki or an old fashion book. Skimming and jumping around is much easier. But once again, do what works for you.
The idea of RTFM is that if you have questions, then we are all on same page with basic information found in the manual. I mean you expect others explain what is already said in the manual. Its like asking how to use your microwave oven, even if you have the manual right at your hand. Now, if the manual is unclear or difficult to understand, that is a different story. Then you can at least say you didn’t understand it. The point is, that you did something before (your homework) and looked at the obvious places like the manual (and maybe further websearch).
People don’t like others being lazy and asking the questions that doesn’t need to be asked. That’s why RTFM exist. As much as you might take the “RTFM” as an offending answer, those people think of you question as offending too. Now there are people who use this term loosely in places when it is not appropriate. Also it depends on the audience. If your grandma tries to use a browser to watch funny cat videos, and asks how to use it, then it would be inappropriate to say RTFM. But if you have a Linux user who asks about how to use
grep, then I think it is an appropriate reply.I suggest to replace RTFM by WHYTSF : What Have You Tried So Far.
The goal isn’t to blame or guilt trip anyone, rather it’s to genuinely help and for that others need to know… WHYTSF?!
That is great, it puts the onus on the asker to prove they tried something
I’ve tried nothing and I’m all out of ideas.
RTFM makes more sense in a professional context. I don’t expect anybody to read anything unless 1 they want to or 2 they are being paid to
Saying RTFM in a hobby or recreational space is just being an asshole for no good reason
“It’s not a professional’s job to read the manuals they need to know for their job unless I specifically tell them to” is an interesting take. A really stupid one but interesting non-the-less…
I think you misinterpreted their message. Their argument is that it’s an expectation that the professional RTFM (more accurately, to have already done so) which shouldn’t carry over to hobbyists. At least not as strictly. Put another way, “The certified Toyota technician needs to have the fancy book learnin’ while the weekend wrencher or shadetree mechanic shouldn’t be held to the same standard.”
I disagree insofar as, short of inaccessible resources (sadly becoming more common in my automotive example) or a lack of time and money, there’s no reason a hobbyist shouldn’t strive to educate themselves and achieve professional level of excellence. So long as they enjoy it, anyway. That’s really the point of a hobby.
the problem was that nobody paid ooops@feddit.org to read any of this
Counterpoint: Aside from disabilities which specifically impact reading, why wouldn’t someone want to read when it comes to their hobbies? A hobby is something one intentionally devotes time to, typically unpaid and nonprofessionally, because they enjoy it and they want to learn more about it. A large amount of my enjoyment is derived from learning more about the things I enjoy, so not wanting to consume that information makes no sense to me.
I can understand, for example, gaming as a hobby and wanting quick answers if one is jumping ship from Windows to Linux. Linux isn’t the hobby there; just a means to an end. I’d still argue the gamer should develop some level of proficiency with their underlying OS. Otherwise it’s like having trail riding as a hobby without any knowledge or tools to patch a tube, tension a chain or tighten a bolt. One might end up in a situation where they can’t just get an instant answer. Investing a little time in the mechanics could keep a short ride from turning into a long trudge out with a bike over the shoulder.
In the context of “Linux”, broadly, as a hobby - what even is that hobby if it isn’t making an honest effort to learn broadly about various tools, the kernel, scripting and programming languages, and so forth? Linux always struck me as a hobby for people who collect hobbies. Or people that have “learning” as a hobby. It’s why, while I’ll probably never work a day of my life in IT, I know how to do some basic SQL queries, hit an API and parse the JSON, do a little scripting in Bash and Python, utilize a load of CLI tooling much more efficiently than any Windows GUI I’ve ever used, and so on. I’ll never know it all but part of the fun is trying anyway.
just because you find it fun doesn’t mean everyone does. i know a couple Linux users who see Linux as a worthwhile chore: boring, frustrating, annoying, but ultimately worthwhile to get away from Microsoft or to gain functionality Windows does not have.
I agree that Linux is also often a step to the actual hobby: gaming, self-hosting, photography, audio production. I empathize with someone reluctant to learn the ins and outs of Unix file ownership when they are just trying to make beats without paying Microsoft. Sure the knowledge is rewarding, but i can’t blame a person for not grokking it the first time when on the surface is seems pointless
If someone is making an effort to learn and doesnt take my time for granted i’m happy to help them.
Also man pages are usually good but lots of software half-asses them these days
Meh… There have been a whole lot of braindead “pls do it for me” posts going around since the influx of windows refugees.
I’m not one to be a prick about answering questions to help out, and we all start somewhere, but “help me get steam and my LLM working on Kali linux” where ppl get in way over their heads is becoming a real problem. Worse, they will call the linux community toxic for suggesting they need more fundamentals first.
I interpret the post title as a general “try your best, and come to us when you’re stuck”.
RTFM doesn’t have to literally mean to read text, just like saying “let me google that for you” doesn’t have to literally be google. Both statements are similar; the point is instead of burdening others with teaching you something, go learn it on your own whether that be the manual or random Indian tech youtuber.
Sometimes people ask others instead of googling things because it offers an opportunity to socialize. We all know google is an option. I get what you’re saying, but it’s sad to see this described as a burden.
