I find it sad and very anti-democratic that they blocked my post, which is polite and respectful. The reply of the moderator was moreover rude: “Instead of starting useless drama here, seemingly in search of magic validation points” and “Go and protest somewhere else, to the people that can actually do something about it.”
Here’s my polite open letter:
I have been happily using KDE software, and especially the Kubuntu Linux distro, Plasma, and Dolphin, for almost a decade, on several devices. Of course I’m also a regular donor and affectionate follower.
It seems that more and more software developers in the Linux and FOSS ecosystem want to implement changes to comply with various age-verification laws. I understand that for the KDE developers and maintainers it might be a difficult decision whether to make this kind of changes or not. They have to consider “legal” aspects, collaboration with other developers, and, possibly, also what their user base think. What to weigh in, and how much weight to give to what, is of course up to the maintainers and developers.
I respect the choice that will be made by KDE. But I also want to make clear, in a respectful and polite way, that if such changes are implemented in KDE software and the Kubuntu distro, then I’ll move away from them, to other software and distros that do not comply (there already are some and I’m sure there’ll be plenty more).
“Well, who cares?” might the KDE people justly say. Partly I’m writing this open letter out of a feeling of friendship. It’s somehow like when you discover that a dear friend might have values very different from yours, so you have to break your no-longer-meaningful friendship, but you also feel you have to explain to your friend why, rather than going away silently. I also believe that many other KDE users think like I do, so this message does not come from me alone.
For me GNU Linux and FOSS is not only a choice about software: it’s also a choice about human values, human rights, and moral stances. These laws, besides being pointless, cross a threshold about human rights and values that I personally do not and will not allow (if this makes me a “criminal” in the egregious company of “criminals” like Claudette Colvin or King or Mandela, so be it). I want therefore to use software that also makes a similar choice, based not only on what’s “legal” but also on what’s “moral”. Besides appeals to politicians, marches of protests, strikes, and similar, also software choice is a form of protest and non-compliance; a stance.
I’m sorry you feel this way, but again you are barking up the wrong tree as we can’t do anything about it… except what you can do too: protest to the people who want to impose this upon us.
Bringing this issue up here or on Discuss is pointless: We know, we are aware, we are against it, we don’t want it, we realise there are ulterior motives from corrupt actors, and we will do what we can to oppose them.
But this, posting to Discuss, complaining about KDE being indifferent here (which it isn’t) is probably the most unproductive thing you could. You are tying up resources of volunteers who are already on your side. Like you say organising a protest, writing to the powers-that-be, educating your local/state/national representative, all these thing help.
But this just consuming volunteers’ time up in moderating a potential flamewar on a topic that we (and I would argue everybody else here) already knows about.
I don’t think it’s unproductive at all. Positive changes and resistance to negative changes are caused by many, extremely different and complex factors, one of which is voiced discontent at all levels. It’s a chain of pressures. Some elements press on other elements which are not the final target, but this pressure makes them in turn exert even more pressure closer to the target. Without such internal pressures, positive changes may fail. History shows examples over and over (a good read is the historian Barzun’s From Dawn to Decadence). I’m sure that if it wasn’t me posting stuff like this, it’d be someone else, and maybe sharing a much less polite post.
Also, I think that this kind of moderation ends up giving a very false picture on the forums, as if everyone discussing there doesn’t really mind about the topic.
I think developers can do something about it. They don’t want to, maybe for obvious reasons, and I respect their choice. But there is a choice.
I think developers can do something about it. They don’t want to, maybe for obvious reasons, and I respect their choice.
Can you point me to the… what? Survey? you are getting this information from? What are we talking here? 90%+ of all FLOSS developers?
I ask because it is usually quite hard to get FLOSS developers to all agree on anything. I am surprised you got a monolithic response to such a controversial topic.
Narrator: They didn’t have a source.
I’m inclined to agree that OS-level age
verificationdeclaration is pointless and invasive but I’m sympathetic with distros looking to comply with the law. I can also see why governments want to pursue identity verification to enforce laws online even if this is obviously not the right way to achieve that.I want to see Linux become the mainstream choice and accept that it will need to be compatible with laws like this to do so. Were Linux more widely used then organisations like the KDE e.V. might even be consulted by lawmakers which might help avoid this sort of legislation being passed in the first place!
I’m also hoping that this can be solved for those in California with some sort of optional service rather than something that gets too closely integrated with the distros or desktop environments.
If you visit, say, the website of the American Association of Physics Teachers or similar associations, you can read their complaints, protests, and alarming messages about cuts and bad policy changes in the education system. So clearly laws like these are not truly targeted at the well-being of children. Fu*king invest on education of children and adults instead.
We forget that there’s no just law, there’s also morality. And sometimes they are against each other. And we must make a choice.
What did you write to the lawmakers in California?
I don’t live in California, but I was one of the many who wrote to EU parliament members against the chat-control law proposals, and participated in other local activities about that.
I’d be happy to write to the lawmakers in California. I suppose my email would immediately go into their spam folder.
But where is this letter coming from? Did kde implement the age verification? I haven’t seen any confirmation about it.
Nobody implemented age verification, it isn’t even what was merged into systemd, everyone claiming it is is basically generating copious amounts of spam over a milquetoast change to add an option unverified field to an api.
But where is this letter coming from? Did kde implement the age verification?
No.
I haven’t seen any confirmation about it.
It hasn’t even been considered.
Looks like Nate Graham is going to get it implemented.
https://discuss.kde.org/t/age-assurance-laws/44886/34
I’ll be pulling my monthly donations unfortunately.
You should probably not take the opinion of one developer as the official position of the whole of KDE. KDE has not got an official position on this topic yet because there is still too much up in the air: are these laws going to stick? Will there be a loophole or exemption for FLOSS? Will it be possible of have the thing disabled be default and just be there for product manufacturers to activate in their products sold in the affected regions? Will it even fall to the devs of desktop projects to like ours to implement this? Will it matter at all or is this all just theatre and the user can just input anything, say, 01/01/1901, and be done with it?
And, probably most important of all: Will KDE as a community comply? This is not up to one developer. There is usually lot of discussion, often a vote. There are lot of different nationalities and people with diverse opinions. Just because one contributor has expressed an opinion, does not a done deal make.
I’m doubling my next annual donation to make up for this sort of fickleness, if they were even donating.
I have nothing but respect for the job KDE does to walk the tightrope of user relations and keeping the project on a legal footing that ensures it’s around for a long time to come.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly. However, Nate has a lot of influence and no doubt if he thinks it must be done then likely it will. Nothing against him personally of course.
I’ll still be pulling my donations, and if they do decide to not implement it then I’ll be more than happy to resume. At the end of the day I’m powerless to really affect change on their end, albeit trying to voice my opinion in the matter.
I agree with you, wholeheartedly. However, Nate has a lot of influence and no doubt if he thinks it must be done then likely it will.
Less than you think… Not that Nate is not a well-recognised dev in and out of KDE. But you have to know that FLOSS devs are incredibly opinionated and stubborn, even the shy ones that don’t talk much. Many of them started and persist within FLOSS because they have a clear view of what is right and wrong, and it is obvious that this issue is going to rub very many contributors the wrong way big time. In the end, for better or worse, KDE is a flat organisation and the voice and vote of the person who translated the labels on the weather widget counts as much as that of the veteran power dev who wrote KHTML.
Nothing against him personally of course.
Liekwise. I would go as far as considering him a friend. We do disagree on stuff though.
I’ll still be pulling my donations, and if they do decide to not implement it then I’ll be more than happy to resume. At the end of the day I’m powerless to really affect change on their end, albeit trying to voice my opinion in the matter.
Of course! This was never about convincing you otherwise. It was about pointing out that the situations is… complicated and that the opinion of one person does not represent the position of the whole organisation.
All fair points. I’m sure there will be a lot of pressure from Corporate entities to push this in, and with how other platforms are just seemingly giving up - I really dont have a lot of confidence left.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Its definitely a complicated issue. In my opinion it seems many people dont really appreciate the broader implications I.e its not just about a singular birthday field, its about what comes next.
No official decisions yet, although in a discussion thread I read developers basically saying “the law is the law”. This is why I politely wanted to let them know, as a KDE user, what’s my stance.
@pglpm @FirmDistribution “the law is the law”. There might be an afghan law forbidding women to use computers, woud they implement it ?
No, because the Afghan woman doesn’t live in California…
