• Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    i’m not that concerned with the precise definition of “opposite”, but i am concerned with whether or not the post’s logic is sound

    The problem is that your argument relies on the idea that “most people support eugenics until you say what it actually is,” which is false in my experience while the post is correct.

    • polonius-rex@kbin.run
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      3 months ago

      i’ve given two examples where i think the average person would come down on the side of “let’s do some eugenics” until being told “haha you just agreed to do some eugenics”

      the problem with the post is that if you boil it down, it becomes “things that sound good on the surface are automatically good”, which doesn’t hold

      • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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        3 months ago

        It doesn’t say they are automatically good, just that people have a negative connotation to the word Marxism even if the ideas are sound and good.

        • polonius-rex@kbin.run
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          3 months ago

          “people have a negative connotation to the word Marxism” absolutely has baked-in implications, and an argument left unsaid, even in total isolation

          if i say to you “people think the word nazi has negative connotations”, then even with no other context then obviously you’d conclude that i’m a nazi freak

          the post doesn’t make any justification for the ideas being sound and good, it says they sound good

          i don’t think this post’s subtext is as simple as the interpretation you’re providing

          • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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            3 months ago

            if i say to you “people think the word nazi has negative connotations”, then even with no other context then obviously you’d conclude that i’m a nazi freak

            Good thing Nazism isn’t sound, nor does it sound good, even without the label.

            the post doesn’t make any justification for the ideas being sound and good, it says they sound good

            It does, actually. Marxism is popular and easily understood, yet red scare propaganda and anticommunism has given it a negative connotation. Eugenics and Nazism are not popular, and have bad connotations because they are bad ideas in general, not to mention Nazism being based on pure evil extermination.

            You’re not cooking here.

            • polonius-rex@kbin.run
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              3 months ago

              Good thing Nazism isn’t sound, nor does it sound good, even without the label.

              it was brought up to explain why “it’s just saying it has negative connotations” doesn’t make something neutral

              Marxism is popular and easily understood, yet red scare propaganda and anticommunism has given it a negative connotation

              you’re kind of just imagining a different post at this point?

              “it does, actually”? you’re going to have to clarify what you mean by “this post makes a justification as to why the concepts behind marxism are sound and good”, unless you mean that “people thinking the ideas sound good” is your justification, which you just argued a second ago wasn’t what the post was doing, and which is exactly what i’m saying is a junk justification

              “Marxism is popular” this post very specifically makes the point that marxism isn’t popular, but its ideas are. that’s like the whole point of the post

              also, “easily understood” what? we haven’t even defined what sort of marxism we’re talking about here

              it says nothing about the reasons for negative connotations; you’re adding that yourself

              Eugenics [is] not popular

              again, i’ve given two examples where the average person would probably support eugenics-in-description-only

              • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                3 months ago

                it was brought up to explain why “it’s just saying it has negative connotations” doesn’t make something neutral

                No, it was brought up to draw equivalence to Marxism, don’t play coy.

                you’re kind of just imagining a different post at this point?

                this post very specifically makes the point that marxism isn’t popular, but its ideas are. that’s like the whole point of the post

                No, Marxism is popular, it’s just sold as different names. Big difference.

                also, “easily understood” what? we haven’t even defined what sort of marxism we’re talking about here

                Is there some other kind we need to worry about here that’s hard to understand?

                again, i’ve given two examples where the average person would probably support eugenics-in-description-only

                No, you pretended the average person would.

                • polonius-rex@kbin.run
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                  3 months ago

                  No, it was brought up to draw equivalence to Marxism, don’t play coy.

                  cool ur jets buddy

                  it wasn’t, and doesn’t even really make sense when read through that lens

                  what kind of person comes into a thread and posts a pro-communism video clip and then angrily equates marxism to nazism?

                  No, Marxism is popular, it’s just sold as different names.

                  that’s describing the same sentiment i just expressed using different words

                  Is there some other kind we need to worry about here that’s hard to understand?

                  honestly the term “marxism” is nebulous enough that just deciding on what counts as “in-scope” is kind of non-trivial

                  are we talking about the economic theory? marxist communism? the whole body of marx’s work?

                  what definition are you using?

                  No, you pretended the average person would.

                  i’m fairly confused what you’re trying to say here

                  are you saying that that, for those two concepts, you don’t think you could pitch the basic ideas behind them in a way such that the average person would agree?

                  • Cowbee [he/him]@lemmy.ml
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                    3 months ago

                    cool ur jets buddy

                    it wasn’t, and doesn’t even really make sense when read through that lens

                    what kind of person comes into a thread and posts a pro-communism video clip and then angrily equates marxism to nazism?

                    I dunno, why bring up the Nazis as though they had popular ideas?

                    honestly the term “marxism” is nebulous enough that just deciding on what counts as “in-scope” is kind of non-trivial

                    are we talking about the economic theory? marxist communism? the whole body of marx’s work?

                    What parts of Marxism do you want to chop off? I am referring to the whole of Marxism, ie critique of Capitalism, philosophical grounding in Dialectical and Historical Materialism, and Communism.

                    are you saying that that, for those two concepts, you don’t think you could pitch the basic ideas behind them in a way such that the average person would agree?

                    Yes, people generally don’t agree with the ideas posed by Nazism.