We’re perfectly aware that Russia is capitalist, it gets no more credits than Germany for its communist past. The reason it receives critical support is because it’s opposing the US, and the US hegemon falling is pretty much the gateway to socialism worldwide.
We’re so clear about it that I don’t even understand how you could possibly think we support Russia because we think it’s still socialist?
The reason [Russia] receives critical support is because it’s opposing the US
From your link:
Critical support is supporting something while also being critical of its flaws. It is often used in the context of supporting bourgeois states that fight against imperialism or are under imperialist aggression.
The thing is, Russia is exactly the polar opposite of “supporting bourgois states that fight against imperialism” or being “under imperialist aggression.” Those statements describe states like Ukraine, while Russia is itself also an imperialist aggressor.
You can argue that the US is also bad in that regard, but you sure as Hell can’t argue that Russia is any better. Supporting Russia “critically” (which I’m also not buying, BTW: quite a lot of its support around her is distinctly uncritical) is doing nothing but advocating for trading one oppressing overlord for another.
We’re so clear about it that I don’t even understand how you could possibly think we support Russia because we think it’s still socialist?
Thinking that maybe you were still somehow confused about Russia being communist was being charitable – giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you’re saying that y’all knowingly support fascists, that just makes you irredeemably terrible people.
Russia has a paltry sum of financial capital. It cannot simply be traded out for the US Empire, which is why in a conflict between the two support for Russia undermines the overall system of imperialism. Meanwhile, Ukraine is leveraged by NATO the same way Israel is, as an attack dog and testing ground for new tools of fascism to be brought back to the imperial core, like Palantir’s toys.
The thing is, Russia is exactly the polar opposite of “supporting bourgois states that fight against imperialism” or being “under imperialist aggression.” Those statements describe states like Ukraine
You think that a state that has invaded Iraq, Syria, Iran, and other places, and has been trying to formally join the gang of other invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan as ‘fighting against imperialism’. You are silly.
Also, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world - NATO - starts amassing troops near that state’s borders, especially after conducting a coup d’etat against a neighbouring state?
Nobody said Russia didn’t invade Ukraine. Communists aren’t pacifists, we do not have such an unnuanced ideology as “anti-warism.” We oppose imperialism, which is a global system headed by the US Empire, a material process with definite characteristics. We do not simply take a moralist stance that whoever gets invaded is just, otherwise we would have supported the Statesian confederacy against the invading Union.
Pointedly, nobody in the entire fucking thread has been willing to admit that it did, either. Can you? Can you actually say the words “Russia invaded Ukraine” instead of dancing around it in the negative?
We oppose imperialism, which is a global system headed by the US Empire
The idea that you define imperialism as ‘the thing the US does’ sure explains a lot!
Meanwhile, back in reality, the actual definition of imperialism depends on the actual actions being taken, not who is taking them. The US is imperialist. Russia is also imperialist. Everybody sucks here.
No, we do not define imperialism as “the thing the US does.” Imperialism was first analyzed as a stage in capitalist development when countries like the UK and Germany were greater imperialist powers, in the years leading up to World War I. It wasn’t until after World War II that the US became the imperial hegemon, leveraging the devastation of Europe as a chance to claim the spotlight and fill the power vacuum.
Imperialism as a stage in capitalism is best characterized by consolidation of monopoly bank and industrial capital into finance capital, and the shift from an economy based on export of commodities to export of capital. Just because the US does this does not mean this is how imperialism was first analyzed, nor does trying to vulgarize the definition of imperialism to be any aggressive action by one country to another erase the fact that this system does materially exist. It exists even if you shut your eyes to it.
Russia has a paltry sum of finance capital. It cannot replace the US Empire, it has no colonies nor neocolonies. It is a dictatorship of nationalist bourgeoisie, run on commodity production, not on export of capital as its basis. It is not imperialist.
No, we do not define imperialism as “the thing the US does.”
I literally quoted you: “imperialism is a global system headed by the US Empire.”
Imperialism was first analyzed as a stage in capitalist development when countries like the UK and Germany were greater imperialist powers, in the years leading up to World War I.
WTF are you talking about? Imperialism has existed longer than capitalism! Sure, the British Empire was imperialist, as was the German Empire. But so was France under Napoleon. So was Spain back in the 15th Century. So was motherfucking Rome, two millennia before capitalism was even invented.
And pointedly, so was Russia, going all the way back to the Tsars. See, for example, Russia’s 19th century imperialism (along with Britain; I’m perfectly willing to admit that) in the form of “the great game” fighting over central Asia.
The idea that only western capitalists are capable of being imperialist is just fucking ludicrous nonsense.
By the way, I realize that it was a quick edit and you may have missed it, but you didn’t respond to my challenge to actually write the words “Russia invaded Ukraine” instead of passively denying the opposite.
The fact that imperialism is a global system headed by the US Empire does not mean that this is how we define it. Imperialism as a stage in capitalist development arose around the end of the 19th century, when there was no imperial hegemon. There were different imperialist powers struggling for supremacy, which was the main cause of World War I.
You’re correct, Tsarist Russia was an imperialist country, but there was a communist revolution, and the ensuing government abolished ownership of Russian colonies, ending Russian imperialism. The fall of the USSR did not come with new colonies, those were already freed. There was not a legal recognition of the old Tsarist colonies under the new Russian Federation, so I don’t see how that’s relevant.
Regarding older forms of imperialism, such as in Rome, those systems are dead. No country is imperialist in the old, Roman sense any longer. Just like how early tribal societies were a form of “early communism,” but that this is not the same as future industrialized communism, earlier forms of imperialism are not the same as imperialism as a stage in capitalist development. They share similarities, such as the exploitation of territories for the sake of the imperial ruling class, but the mechanisms at play are very different.
There is no idea that “only western capitalists are capable of being imperialist.” Japan is imperialist, for example. It just so happens that at this stage in imperialist development, the imperialist powers are overwhelmingly western. You’re confusing how imperialism is presently manifested with how it’s defined.
Seriously claiming that other people engage in “whataboutism” is just an admittance of one’s own hypocrisy.
The undeniable fact is that Russia invaded Ukraine
After NATO self-admittedly kept pushing for war with Russia with Ukraine as its proxy.
That makes Russia the aggressor and Ukraine the victim in that conflict.
Attempting to join the most prolific invader in the world is an act of aggression, and so is pushing for war with Russia. I wouldn’t say that responding to those makes a state the aggressor, but the people of Ukraine (excluding its leadership) are some of the victims.
“Four months into this thing, I like the structural path we’re on here. As long as we help Ukraine with the weapons they need and the economic support, they will fight to the last person,” said Sen. Lindsay Graham (R-S.C.) early into the war, accidentally voicing what the war’s critics have often said about the war — that the U.S. will fight it “to the last Ukrainian.” Later, Graham called it the “best money we’ve ever spent.”
The revolutionary violence that swept Kyiv’s Maidan Square on the night of February 21, 2014 unleashed the forces of Ukrainian nationalism and, ultimately, Russian revanchism, and resulted in, among other things, the first full-scale land war in Europe since 1945.
In November 2013, Ukrainian President Victor Yanukovych rejected the terms of the European Union Association Agreement in favor of a $15 billion credit agreement offered by the Russian Federation. Many in the western part of Ukraine had supported the EU deal, as it would have, in their view, secured Ukraine’s future within Europe.
But, as the Europeans, Americans, Ukrainians and Russians knew full well, the association agreement with Brussels wasn’t merely a trade deal. Section 2.3 of the EU-Ukraine association agenda would have required the signatories to:
“…take measures to foster military cooperation and cooperation of technical character between the EU and Ukraine [and] encourage and facilitate direct cooperation on concrete activities, jointly identified by both sides, between relevant Ukrainian institutions and CFSP/CSDP agencies and bodies such as the European Defence Agency, the European Union Institute for Security Studies, the European Union Satellite Centre and the European Security and Defence College.”
In other words, the trade deal also included the encouragement of military interoperability with forces viewed, rightly or wrongly, by the Russian government as a threat to Russian national security.
In addition, the EU association agenda required Ukraine to put up barriers to trade with Russia. An alternative proposal put forward by Romano Prodi (former Italian Prime Minister and EU Commission president) would have allowed Ukraine to trade with both Russia and the EU but was rejected by Brussels.
And so, the U.S. lent its support to the post-Maidan government (and the Anti-Terrorist Operation, or ATO, launched in April 2014) against the largely, but of course far from entirely, indigenous uprising in the Donbas. Thus began the first phase of the war, which lasted until the evening of February 24, 2022 and cost 14,000 dead and 1.5 million refugees.
The “threats to national sovereignty” argument is complete and utter horseshit. The absolute undeniable fact is that Ukraine did not attack Russia until it was attacked first.
That nonsense is exactly like trying to argue that I had the right to shoot you because I thought you looked at me funny. It’s just categorically dishonest.
We’re perfectly aware that Russia is capitalist, it gets no more credits than Germany for its communist past. The reason it receives critical support is because it’s opposing the US, and the US hegemon falling is pretty much the gateway to socialism worldwide.
We’re so clear about it that I don’t even understand how you could possibly think we support Russia because we think it’s still socialist?
From your link:
The thing is, Russia is exactly the polar opposite of “supporting bourgois states that fight against imperialism” or being “under imperialist aggression.” Those statements describe states like Ukraine, while Russia is itself also an imperialist aggressor.
You can argue that the US is also bad in that regard, but you sure as Hell can’t argue that Russia is any better. Supporting Russia “critically” (which I’m also not buying, BTW: quite a lot of its support around her is distinctly uncritical) is doing nothing but advocating for trading one oppressing overlord for another.
Thinking that maybe you were still somehow confused about Russia being communist was being charitable – giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you’re saying that y’all knowingly support fascists, that just makes you irredeemably terrible people.
Russia has a paltry sum of financial capital. It cannot simply be traded out for the US Empire, which is why in a conflict between the two support for Russia undermines the overall system of imperialism. Meanwhile, Ukraine is leveraged by NATO the same way Israel is, as an attack dog and testing ground for new tools of fascism to be brought back to the imperial core, like Palantir’s toys.
You think that a state that has invaded Iraq, Syria, Iran, and other places, and has been trying to formally join the gang of other invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan as ‘fighting against imperialism’. You are silly.
Also, what do you think a state should do when the most prolific invader in the world - NATO - starts amassing troops near that state’s borders, especially after conducting a coup d’etat against a neighbouring state?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Ukraine_relations
Whataboutism.
The undeniable fact is that Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around. That makes Russia the aggressor and Ukraine the victim in that conflict.
Nobody said Russia didn’t invade Ukraine. Communists aren’t pacifists, we do not have such an unnuanced ideology as “anti-warism.” We oppose imperialism, which is a global system headed by the US Empire, a material process with definite characteristics. We do not simply take a moralist stance that whoever gets invaded is just, otherwise we would have supported the Statesian confederacy against the invading Union.
Pointedly, nobody in the entire fucking thread has been willing to admit that it did, either. Can you? Can you actually say the words “Russia invaded Ukraine” instead of dancing around it in the negative?
The idea that you define imperialism as ‘the thing the US does’ sure explains a lot!
Meanwhile, back in reality, the actual definition of imperialism depends on the actual actions being taken, not who is taking them. The US is imperialist. Russia is also imperialist. Everybody sucks here.
No, we do not define imperialism as “the thing the US does.” Imperialism was first analyzed as a stage in capitalist development when countries like the UK and Germany were greater imperialist powers, in the years leading up to World War I. It wasn’t until after World War II that the US became the imperial hegemon, leveraging the devastation of Europe as a chance to claim the spotlight and fill the power vacuum.
Imperialism as a stage in capitalism is best characterized by consolidation of monopoly bank and industrial capital into finance capital, and the shift from an economy based on export of commodities to export of capital. Just because the US does this does not mean this is how imperialism was first analyzed, nor does trying to vulgarize the definition of imperialism to be any aggressive action by one country to another erase the fact that this system does materially exist. It exists even if you shut your eyes to it.
Russia has a paltry sum of finance capital. It cannot replace the US Empire, it has no colonies nor neocolonies. It is a dictatorship of nationalist bourgeoisie, run on commodity production, not on export of capital as its basis. It is not imperialist.
I literally quoted you: “imperialism is a global system headed by the US Empire.”
WTF are you talking about? Imperialism has existed longer than capitalism! Sure, the British Empire was imperialist, as was the German Empire. But so was France under Napoleon. So was Spain back in the 15th Century. So was motherfucking Rome, two millennia before capitalism was even invented.
And pointedly, so was Russia, going all the way back to the Tsars. See, for example, Russia’s 19th century imperialism (along with Britain; I’m perfectly willing to admit that) in the form of “the great game” fighting over central Asia.
The idea that only western capitalists are capable of being imperialist is just fucking ludicrous nonsense.
By the way, I realize that it was a quick edit and you may have missed it, but you didn’t respond to my challenge to actually write the words “Russia invaded Ukraine” instead of passively denying the opposite.
The fact that imperialism is a global system headed by the US Empire does not mean that this is how we define it. Imperialism as a stage in capitalist development arose around the end of the 19th century, when there was no imperial hegemon. There were different imperialist powers struggling for supremacy, which was the main cause of World War I.
You’re correct, Tsarist Russia was an imperialist country, but there was a communist revolution, and the ensuing government abolished ownership of Russian colonies, ending Russian imperialism. The fall of the USSR did not come with new colonies, those were already freed. There was not a legal recognition of the old Tsarist colonies under the new Russian Federation, so I don’t see how that’s relevant.
Regarding older forms of imperialism, such as in Rome, those systems are dead. No country is imperialist in the old, Roman sense any longer. Just like how early tribal societies were a form of “early communism,” but that this is not the same as future industrialized communism, earlier forms of imperialism are not the same as imperialism as a stage in capitalist development. They share similarities, such as the exploitation of territories for the sake of the imperial ruling class, but the mechanisms at play are very different.
There is no idea that “only western capitalists are capable of being imperialist.” Japan is imperialist, for example. It just so happens that at this stage in imperialist development, the imperialist powers are overwhelmingly western. You’re confusing how imperialism is presently manifested with how it’s defined.
And I did respond to your edit, take a look.
Seriously claiming that other people engage in “whataboutism” is just an admittance of one’s own hypocrisy.
After NATO self-admittedly kept pushing for war with Russia with Ukraine as its proxy.
Attempting to join the most prolific invader in the world is an act of aggression, and so is pushing for war with Russia. I wouldn’t say that responding to those makes a state the aggressor, but the people of Ukraine (excluding its leadership) are some of the victims.
“Erm sir it is actually a heckin whataboutism to point out that I have aligned myself with Nazis”
Are you capable of admitting that Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around?
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/maidan-ukraine/
The “threats to national sovereignty” argument is complete and utter horseshit. The absolute undeniable fact is that Ukraine did not attack Russia until it was attacked first.
That nonsense is exactly like trying to argue that I had the right to shoot you because I thought you looked at me funny. It’s just categorically dishonest.
Are you capable of admitting that the Ukranian government was engaged in an eight year campaign of ethnic cleansing?
So that’s a “no,” then. Thanks for confirming your bad faith.
Why do you guys always avoid this topic?
Go back to Reddit