Mixed feelings because obviously studying for a degree implies maths and sciences which does qualify you as an engineer, but imo “software engineer” isn’t a real thing. You’re either a computer engineer or a code monkey.
Do… Do you think software on its own needs no engineering?
If I say please build me a webshop from scratch, do I need a “computer engineer” which presumingly includes hardware knowledge by your distinction? Probably not. Is a code monkey going to build me the website? Also probably not.
So somewhere inbetween the two, you probably need a position that can engineer complex pieces of computer code, along with its design and architecture - we could even call it something short, like a software engineer or something
An old professor of mine made the half-joke that anything with ‘science’ in its name isn’t really science. He was a computer science professor.
I suppose he meant that computer science is closer to applied science aka. engineering than ‘real’ science like maths and physics, and all their subcategories.
Anyway… In the end everyone that graduated studying computer science got a Bachelor/Masters degree of science, not engineering… And it doesn’t matter anyway…
You’re right, we should let people who know HTML print out their own degrees equivalent to a 6 year discipline with specific application of math and science. /sarcasm
Yeah, I moved into software from electrical engineering. “Software engineers” are rarely doing engineering. Though, weirdly, the LLM-assisted coding methods seems to be leading to more of a focus on specs, design documents, and testing methodology, which almost makes it more like actual engineering.
I’m a “software engineer.” One of the most interesting jobs I’ve had was working on a team of (mostly) electrical engineers at an industrial tool manufacturer. Most of the team designed electronics (primarily IC’s) for the controls. A few of us designed software that interacted with said controls.
That experience taught me that engjneering, at its core, is just solving problems in a given domain with a a specific set of “tools”. I was amazed by how much thought process overlap there is between software and electronics engineering.
My job is solving business problems. Writing code is auxiliary to that. And even though I don’t have have a degree or any certifications, none of the people on that team ever talked down to me or tried to make me feel inferior.
As a mechanical engineer: if a software engineer completed school, they’re an engineer, deal with it. We’re not talking about someone that doesn’t know what they’re doing cobbing things together for 1-off demos like Michael Reeves
I only consider Engineering to be the application of math and science to plan complex systems or structures.
If a person is doing that as a programmer then they have to already understand computer architecture to a bare minimum of how memory works physically, processor functionality, and discreet mathematics: which makes them a computer engineer.
If a person completely lacks understanding of math or physics behind the machines they code for then I don’t care how complicated their derivative work is: it is not engineering. Much like how painting is not engineering nor is balancing a stack of rocks.
Oh, boooo. Boooo! Come on, you were lining up a classic crowd favorite, the “Real Engineers understand the fundamentals” attack, then they hit you with the ol’ “Some programming courses teach the fundamentals” and you come back with this? No pivot to credentialing, no tirade about how software is all virtual so it’s not the same as building something with real materials, no grand declaration about how real engineers have to take their jobs seriously because lives are at stake? Just “no it’s programming not engineering they’re different”? Weak.
Back in my day we used to argue about whether or not software engineering is real engineering with some gumption.
I’m referring to the tropes of this tired-ass debate, I’m not saying there’s any merit to any of them. My heckle is mainly concerned with the lack of substance, even cliched or overused substance, behind the argument you’re trying to make. It sounds, based on the disrespectful way you describe coders as “syntax apes”, that you don’t really understand the craft of software development, the principles of engineering practice, or how the two intersect.
You sound like a clueless manager who thinks of devs as interchangeable and easily replaceable cogs in a software factory.
Engineering is the application of math and science to plan complex systems and structures
Computer science teaches math and science to plan complex systems and structures
But you believe that computer science prepares students for “programming”, not engineering, so they aren’t engineers. Despite it being about the application of math and science to design complex systems and structures (engineering) and despite the fact that everyone else calls this profession software engineering and you call it programming. And you don’t think you have a bias?
It’s possible to learn how to do some limited engineering while working towards a comp sci degree but it doesn’t magically turn every task you perform into engineering. Programming isn’t engineering.
So engineering is not what you said you believe it is, you actually believe it’s what you said it is except software engineers because you’re a condescending gatekeeper. Software engineering is different from programming.
What is it that you think I said it was? Because I pretty clearly outlined how memorizing syntax, calling functions, and gradeschool algebra are not engineering.
I can tell you have a bachelor’s of engineering. Not because I think you’re being elitist. But because you haven’t yet figured out that words are fluid and don’t follow strict rules like systems do.
English is hard.
I have a B.E. as well. It took me years to word good.
You’re on Lemmy so you’d be better off learning Mandarin or Russian.
Words which indicate a minimun amount of trained and proven competence or authority, such as Doctor or Police Lieutenant, are not things you can just claim willy nilly.
If I say the word Dr. Dre, do you know who I’m talking about? If the answer is yes, then you understand that the word doctor is not always about the medical profession.
Computer engineer. Software engineer. Train engineer. The qualifier is what let’s you differentiate. Your claim is that the generic term only covers a subset of how people use the word.
TBH it’s not easy to get 98 people to engage with a bottom of the list comment so clearly some part of it is botted, which tracks because I’m pissing off sloppers and slopper admins every time I visit this instance.
The default sorting is hot - which does not show your comment at the bottom of the list. It’s not a conspiracy, you just said something incredibly naive about a field that is over represented on lemmy.
Mixed feelings because obviously studying for a degree implies maths and sciences which does qualify you as an engineer, but imo “software engineer” isn’t a real thing. You’re either a computer engineer or a code monkey.
I’m assuming you’ve never experienced the world of safety critical software development like the medical and aerospace industries.
An engineer can code but a programmer is not an engineer. I have actually, btw, though not as a programmer but closely with them.
This is very much a US specific thing
Do… Do you think software on its own needs no engineering?
If I say please build me a webshop from scratch, do I need a “computer engineer” which presumingly includes hardware knowledge by your distinction? Probably not. Is a code monkey going to build me the website? Also probably not.
So somewhere inbetween the two, you probably need a position that can engineer complex pieces of computer code, along with its design and architecture - we could even call it something short, like a software engineer or something
Programmer
A programmer builds the software. An engineer designs it.
Lmao ok pal
That explains why all the programmers carry around hammers. You know. To help them type in the word CMake.
I’m not sure what you mean about hammers, but I mean build as in implementation, not build as in compile.
This guy is just lost. Everybody knows engineers drive trains.
An old professor of mine made the half-joke that anything with ‘science’ in its name isn’t really science. He was a computer science professor.
I suppose he meant that computer science is closer to applied science aka. engineering than ‘real’ science like maths and physics, and all their subcategories.
Anyway… In the end everyone that graduated studying computer science got a Bachelor/Masters degree of science, not engineering… And it doesn’t matter anyway…
You’re right, we should let people who know HTML print out their own degrees equivalent to a 6 year discipline with specific application of math and science. /sarcasm
It matters.
Your opinion is bad then. And I realize the irony of saying that with my username.
maybe on krypton code monkeys are licensed and everyone else is just doing engineering
“Software engineer” will be a thing when it’s licensed by the state. Until then, we’re all just glorified cowboy-coders with no accountability.
(Speaking as computer programmer with an EIT in a different field.)
Yeah, I moved into software from electrical engineering. “Software engineers” are rarely doing engineering. Though, weirdly, the LLM-assisted coding methods seems to be leading to more of a focus on specs, design documents, and testing methodology, which almost makes it more like actual engineering.
i think the word “engineer” has something to do with the word “ingenuity” … now ask yourself, how much creative thinking do you need as a coder?
Depends on the task, somewhere between next to none and actual engineering.
I’m a “software engineer.” One of the most interesting jobs I’ve had was working on a team of (mostly) electrical engineers at an industrial tool manufacturer. Most of the team designed electronics (primarily IC’s) for the controls. A few of us designed software that interacted with said controls.
That experience taught me that engjneering, at its core, is just solving problems in a given domain with a a specific set of “tools”. I was amazed by how much thought process overlap there is between software and electronics engineering.
My job is solving business problems. Writing code is auxiliary to that. And even though I don’t have have a degree or any certifications, none of the people on that team ever talked down to me or tried to make me feel inferior.
As a mechanical engineer: if a software engineer completed school, they’re an engineer, deal with it. We’re not talking about someone that doesn’t know what they’re doing cobbing things together for 1-off demos like Michael Reeves
It’s not a real thing because it’s virtual? Or not being regulated makes it not a real thing?
I only consider Engineering to be the application of math and science to plan complex systems or structures.
If a person is doing that as a programmer then they have to already understand computer architecture to a bare minimum of how memory works physically, processor functionality, and discreet mathematics: which makes them a computer engineer.
If a person completely lacks understanding of math or physics behind the machines they code for then I don’t care how complicated their derivative work is: it is not engineering. Much like how painting is not engineering nor is balancing a stack of rocks.
any computer science course teaches those things
To prepare the student for programming not for engineering.
Oh, boooo. Boooo! Come on, you were lining up a classic crowd favorite, the “Real Engineers understand the fundamentals” attack, then they hit you with the ol’ “Some programming courses teach the fundamentals” and you come back with this? No pivot to credentialing, no tirade about how software is all virtual so it’s not the same as building something with real materials, no grand declaration about how real engineers have to take their jobs seriously because lives are at stake? Just “no it’s programming not engineering they’re different”? Weak.
Back in my day we used to argue about whether or not software engineering is real engineering with some gumption.
Engineers are rarely menial labourers so idk what you mean by programming being virtual. Like 98% of engineering work is planning diagrams.
My argument has always been that the work is different between a syntax ape and an engineer.
I’m referring to the tropes of this tired-ass debate, I’m not saying there’s any merit to any of them. My heckle is mainly concerned with the lack of substance, even cliched or overused substance, behind the argument you’re trying to make. It sounds, based on the disrespectful way you describe coders as “syntax apes”, that you don’t really understand the craft of software development, the principles of engineering practice, or how the two intersect.
You sound like a clueless manager who thinks of devs as interchangeable and easily replaceable cogs in a software factory.
I accept your resignation.
So you believe that
But you believe that computer science prepares students for “programming”, not engineering, so they aren’t engineers. Despite it being about the application of math and science to design complex systems and structures (engineering) and despite the fact that everyone else calls this profession software engineering and you call it programming. And you don’t think you have a bias?
It’s possible to learn how to do some limited engineering while working towards a comp sci degree but it doesn’t magically turn every task you perform into engineering. Programming isn’t engineering.
So engineering is not what you said you believe it is, you actually believe it’s what you said it is except software engineers because you’re a condescending gatekeeper. Software engineering is different from programming.
What is it that you think I said it was? Because I pretty clearly outlined how memorizing syntax, calling functions, and gradeschool algebra are not engineering.
We don’t get computer science degrees from gradeschool, goober.
You also don’t get math degrees period.
I can tell you have a bachelor’s of engineering. Not because I think you’re being elitist. But because you haven’t yet figured out that words are fluid and don’t follow strict rules like systems do.
English is hard.
I have a B.E. as well. It took me years to word good.
You’re on Lemmy so you’d be better off learning Mandarin or Russian.
Words which indicate a minimun amount of trained and proven competence or authority, such as Doctor or Police Lieutenant, are not things you can just claim willy nilly.
If I say the word Dr. Dre, do you know who I’m talking about? If the answer is yes, then you understand that the word doctor is not always about the medical profession.
He doesn’t call himself medical doctor dre or physician dre though
My doctorate of English doesn’t imply that either. Still have a doctorate. Still a doctor.
Okay go down to the hospital and tell everyone you’re a medical doctor. I want to see how far you make it.
“Medical” doctor. You’ve moved the goal posts.
Computer engineer. Software engineer. Train engineer. The qualifier is what let’s you differentiate. Your claim is that the generic term only covers a subset of how people use the word.
Dude, an Engineer drives a fucking train
I can respect that but you need to propose a new term for structural and electrical engineers to replace it if that’s where we draw the line.
You’re continuing to prove my point. Words can have multiple meanings. Words change over time. The definition of a word is whatever people use it as.
If tomorrow every bus driver becomes a transportation engineer, and everyone starts calling them that, then that’s what engineer means.
If you cannot accept the above, you cannot properly participate in English.
Ah dangit, ok mr gatekeeper here take my license to English
You should post this to UnpopularOpinions.
TBH it’s not easy to get 98 people to engage with a bottom of the list comment so clearly some part of it is botted, which tracks because I’m pissing off sloppers and slopper admins every time I visit this instance.
The default sorting is hot - which does not show your comment at the bottom of the list. It’s not a conspiracy, you just said something incredibly naive about a field that is over represented on lemmy.
I’m not on Lemmy. Lemmy is maintained by people who deny trans rights and fight for Russia.
Gosh, did I say you were?
yes
Where?
I get your point but I’m not going to pull out my whole resume when, at the end of the day, I write software for a living.
Programmer is shorter and more honest than software engineer, tho
Programmers and Software Engineers are different things, tho
Programmers and Engineers are different things, tho
Yes. But software engineers are engineers. Not all programmers are software engineers.
Not all software engineers are engineers and furthermore software isn’t an engineering discipline to begin with.
Wut bud
That’s why I take offense to the use of the phrase. Welcome to the discussion.
True. It doesn’t include my (legally recognised) title, however