My current issue is i see you guys constantly having issues, editing files etc.
Is it not stable?
Can you not set it up and then not have ongoing issues?
This is a forum where people seek help. Of course you’re going to see problems here. Nobody posts “hey it’s been several years and I’ve had no problems.”
Of course linux is stable. It runs like 80% of servers on the Internet.
Can confirm. I’ve been using Linux for nearly 30 years… I don’t post questions on forums. Bug reports for OSS projects, on the other hand…
Also can confirm. Been using Arch, which most people consider requires more fiddling than other distros, for almost 10 years now and have had few issues with it. I’ve had to fix my Windows install more than my Linux.
Hey, it’s been well over a decade, and the largest problem I have is a crippling addiction to distro hopping…
Personally, I don’t get the appeal of distro hopping. I think it’s nice to try different concepts, but there aren’t that many.
You basically have the “classic” distributions, like Debian, Suse, Fedora and their derivatives and if you want those split up into the stable and the rolling distributions (Arch, maybe Debian Sid). Then there’s the source-based distributions, most notably Gentoo and derivatives. Declarative distributions, NixOS and GUIX system. And then maybe the newer breed of immutable distributions like Fedora Silverblue.
To me, the difference between an Arch system and Debian are kind of minimal. Yet I’d always prefer Arch. But why would I hop to OpenSUSE?
Granted, I always install from the terminal anyways and build my system to my needs, so I usually don’t get the default experience.
Welcome to the club. Just now I’m setting up Endeavour to give it another (14th) shot.
Big oof. May the kernel be with you.
I’m going to do my best to “wait” for PopOS 24.04 before I hop out again. It seemsbI finally got Endeavour right, with hybrid graphics and all. The only pain was actually how long it took to install Lubre Wolf. Ah, and that the first attempt at installing flatpaks, nothing was showing up after install until I rebooted. But now they work as expected.
Mmmmmm…that feeling when everything just finally falls into place and works right. chef’s kiss
Only 80%?!? I assume *BSD isn’t counted in that number. I really can’t see people running windows on their servers…
And to be honest, server stability != display server stability.
To be honest I pulled the 80% out of my ass… It was the first reasonable looking number that came up on a quick search.
Of course linux is stable. It runs like 80% of servers on the Internet.
I assume *BSD isn’t counted in that number.
BSD isn’t Linux.
Of course it’s stable.
Just like with Windows, the more advanced stuff you do, the more advanced problems you’ll have.
If you just wanna set and forget, avoid arch based and you’re golden.
Well unless it’s just editing the text file. God forbid you unknowingly enter vim and don’t know how to get out without rebooting.
There was a time when I had to do that. I was a teenager. I had no idea what I was doing. And it was many many years later that I finally learned how to quit it. That pain keeps me away to this day.
Long live nano, the warm and cuddly text editor.
I’m imagining that same instance still stuck open for years until you found out.
To quit vim is simple!
Just get a second computer, network with the first one, SSH into the first one, find the process ID of vim, and pkill! Easy as pie!
Screw nano and ed, use mirco.
… It didn’t occur to you to google “how to exit vim”?
It’s :q! and if you were in some special mode you can spam esc a bunch of times before.
They couldn’t, didn’t you read? They were stuck in vim!
I’m not sure of you are trying to be funny, but just in case you are not, if their only working environment was a terminal and they didn’t know how to get out of vim, they were fucked to begin with.
I’m guessing they entered vim because they copied it from somewhere, be it another window, having vim in a terminal emulator, a mobile phone where they searched whatever, or another PC. If we are talking about a non graphical PC with just a single tty or a user without the knowledge of changing ttys or without the knowledge of searching the web from the command line, who somehow entered vim without external input, that’s kinda on them, idk. There’s several fuckup steps in there, all nicely stacked.
Google didn’t exist.
That’s assuming that you’re able to google it. Before everyone had a phone in their pocket, and 17 computers lying around if you were stuck in command line with no GUI then you had no option.
Thing is, when people say that windows doesn’t break, they mean that it doesn’t break for normal users. I’d be surprised if those know what a command like editor is, to begin with.
And it totally does break, it’s just that people are familiar with the ways windows breaks, and know how to work around it.
I second this advice. Arch is a rolling-release distribution, so most of its packages are updated to the latest releases as soon as they come out, regardless of whether they’re tested to be stable with other software and hardware configurations.
I have “ubuntu server” installed on an old computer I use for hosting game servers. That thing is incredibly stable and low-maintenance.
Exactly … If all you’re going to do is go online and maybe write a document once in a while … a simple distro like Mint or PopOS will just work without issue.
This is odd phrasing. It sounds like you’re saying mint and pop aren’t capable of more. Same when people call them "good for newbs"n implying that more advanced users flock elsewhere.
It’s the enthusiast mindset.
Keep in mind that all the people who are just happily going about their day to day with it and not having issues are probably not posting. The only reason most people make posts is to complain about something or get assistance troubleshooting an issue. It also really depends on what all you want to do with it.
The people who gave up because they couldn’t solve their issues aren’t posting either.
I agree. I am posting about Linux when I use it, but have been back on windows for years now, and guess what - I’m not posting about Linux. This proves your point.
One of my favorite things about Linux is this: you can try it. Get a thumb drive, get Rufus or Etcher. Download Mint, Ubuntu, something with a “Live Linux”. Boot from the thumb drive, spend an hour or two surfing, clicking around, seeing if things work. 2018, you had like an 80% chance of a flawless experience. 2024, it’s way higher! Plus, the alternatives have gotten slower, more bloated, more interested in monetizing you than serving you, so even if it feels strange, and you have to relearn some stuff, more than ever, it might be worth it.
Even if it didn’t work quite right, keep the thumb drive around. The number of times I’ve rescued an important file off of a messed up system using a thumb drive with Mint on it? You’d be surprised.
Just want to mention Ventoy here. Able to boot from one thumb drive into a selection of distros? Yes please.
I also use Ventoy. Someone says it has problems, I never found them
Some older PCs are cranky and won’t boot it. Some newer PCs refused as well, to ‘protect’ me from a shim.
Agreed! That’s a couple steps after you convert into a full-blown LiNerd, but I have a Ventoy nestled next to my portable Mint. I landed on Ventoy after I snagged an IODD-2541 and decided that someone had to have implemented the concept in software.
This is awesome advice, ill give this a go first thank youvery much
Yes. Install Linux Mint and be done. Just works. A lot of “problems” people have are because they enjoy tinkering and that will sometimes break stuff. Leave it alone and it’ll be very stable.
Linux mint just works this is good advice :)
Thank you
the dark secret of linux is that there are just as many people who dont understand how to solve problems and resort to searching the correct way to shake a dead chicken as with every other platform.
Ever read some of the microsoft forums? Just as many people seeking help there - the only difference is we don’t have an over eager paid employee replying with scripted answers which don’t help.
Linux is as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. Most of the mainstream distros “just work” on most hardware. I’ve installed Mint, Rocky, Ubuntu and Debian on laptops and desktops for relatives, including those who aren’t remotely technically gifted. It was as easy/easier as Windows to install, set up and get running. The users are happy - they can use cheaper hardware (and don’t need to upgrade a perfectly good laptop for Windows 11) and are entirely free of software costs and subscriptions. Everything works and things don’t break - just like Windows and Macs. Most people just want their computer to turn on and let them run stuff. All three do that equally as well.
I’ve also installed linux on hardware clusters costing hundreds of thousands of pounds and that definitely wasn’t a simple or quick process, but that’s the nature of the task. Actually, installing the base os was probably the easiest part. Windows just isn’t an option for that.
You ask a fair question - you’re not unique in your viewpoint and that’s probably hampered takeup more than anything else. What makes you a bit better than most is that you actually ask the question and appear to be open to the answers.
Thanks for the write up,
I’m going to look into it in the next few weeks.
Who’s going to post online about when nothing eventful happened and they have no issues?
Yeah i understand that, i just wanted to check
Survive biase
Maybe you are seeing issues as the people who don’t have issues rarely post.
What’s your setup? I can tell you if there are things you might have issues with.
It’s very old, i would have to take a look later on, but due to the age of the hardware i sas planning a new build.
I did consider the “survival bias” probably not thenright term. But thats whyi was asking here obviously squeaky wheels get the oil.
It the hardware older than 15 years of age?
Oh no, 7 years tops
If you leave it alone, it’s practically always fine. But the urge to tinker is strong!
Hence some addicted to the itch of distro hopping.
You’re always going to see people with problems in support forums. If your Linux system is running well, you’re less likely to post about it than if you’re having problems.
Hi! I’m not having any problems with linux. I just thought you’d like to know.
There. Now there’s a message in the support forums about a person not having problems!
gives an idea to create something like “stablelinux” where people share uptime and what practices they use to not get into trouble
Those communities got a little stale when enough people started reporting uptime in decades. Also, unless you’re on a flavor that can upgrade the kernel while the system is live, good uptimes these days are just the time between kernel updates.
Yes Stable Linux variants (also known as distros) are very widely used, and range from Linux mint which is completely stable with no issues for day to day use (assuming you don’t use an Nvidia card) to Debian which which has a selling point of not changing anything beyond security updates for like 6 years straight
Most people here will be talking about there bleeding edge systems which will use code that is often in beta or use systems so new they don’t have proper documentation (the bcachefs file system which showed up last month comes to mind).
Just ot make it clear to OP, Stable does NOT nesesarily mean bug free. Just like how most people are on the “stable” branch of Windows 10 or 11,but they still encounter bugs, “stable” Linux distros can also have bugs.
The difference between “stable” and not stable is that: 1.) The system is “stable” in that it’s very unlikely to crash. Stable Linux distros are much preferred for servers, for instance. 2.) Any OS related bugs you find will still be there likely until the next big release. (with Debian iirc this is like every 4 years)
Debian has been doing two years for a long time. The longest interval was three.
I never had issues with Nvidia on Mint, but I recently upgraded to a 7800xt and had issues in some games. Switched to Ubuntu 23.10 with Wayland and back to no issues. I recommend Mint for all new Linux users, unless you have current gen hardware. Then you might want a newer kernel. Linux Mint is very stable and you can expect the same amount of bugs as Windows 10. Less bugs than Win11 I think.
Linux Mint provides a newer kernel (currently 6.5), either through the Edge ISO or the kernels menu in the updater.
What?! Damn… That’s what I get for just apt updating in the terminal and assuming it’s fixed to 5.15. I’ve read that Mint is still behind on Wayland support though, so my switch to Ubuntu still feels justified.
This seems to imply that other operating systems don’t have issues and don’t require editing files.
Compared to Windows, I’ve had fewer frustrating issues on Linux. I think the reason you hear about these issues is because the Linux community naturally encourages sharing these issues. If I have a niche problem, I can share it, then the community will work together to solve it so it isn’t an issue anymore. On Windows, you might run a troubleshooting wizard that might solve the problem, and if it doesn’t you’ll probably take it to MS support who’ll walk you through it. If that doesn’t fix it, you’ll likely just wait for a bug fix in the next update. Point being, they get talked about less because the system doesn’t encourage problem solving on the users end (as much as Linux does).
As for editing files, sure, you do a lot of that on Linux. On Windows, you use a settings menu to fiddle with things, but all that settings menu does is give you a button to press. Pressing that button is just a fancy visual way of editing a file somewhere. Linux just often forgoes the graphical interface and encourages you to get used to editing those files directly.
Just to add one point to the end there, a lot of times in Windows it isn’t even a file it’s editing, or at least not a plain text file you could even edit manually, so it’s much more obfuscated even than that.
Or it’s a setting in the registry that pretty much everyone says “do not touch if you don’t know what you’re doing, you will break your system”… Nowhere in Linux will you be editing something that can break your install while configuring your default keyboard layout (as an example)
Linux distros are maintained by people that want to create the best OS possible. Windows is maintained by a company that wants to sell you something.
Yes thats definitely something worth noting. I was just bringing up the point that in the end, all settings are just little parameters in some file or registry, and that there’s no practical difference between flipping a switch in a GUI to the off position vs adding a ‘#’ in a config file to comment out a line or option. One just looks intimidating if you aren’t used to it, but in reality it gives you much more control and teaches you more about your system.
And out of thousands of good reasons to choose Linux over everything else out there, this has to be in the top 3 list.
In general it’s pretty stable. That being said, especially when you’re using bleeding edge hardware, it’s not perfect.
Take my Radeon 7800 XT as an example. I’m using Linux on my desktop as of January 1st pretty much, and decided I’ll go for Fedora as it’s pretty up-to-date in terms of kernel releases but also has a great out-of-the-box experience. Kernel 6.6 has been pretty good for me, but newer kernels (6.7.x and 6.8) have issues with my setup. Engaging VRR (variable refresh rate) after the computer wakes up from standby leads to part of the screen flickering white for a few frames every now and then, and eventually the system crashes. Up to 6.7.4 the GPU only output a black screen after standby or even after a warm restart. The latter has been resolved in 6.7.5 but the former issue has not. I’ve been following a few issues, adding a crash report here and there, trying patch files, but so far to no avail.
This means I’m basically stuck on 6.6 for now, which also means I’m compiling the kernel myself to get the latest patch release, as Fedora doesn’t maintain 6.6 anymore.
I had even more issues with Nvidia combined with Wayland. Ironically, Intel Arc probably works the best in terms of stability in my experience.
I’m going to say that in terms of GPU stability, I had a better experience with Windows. Sure, the odd AMD driver release has issues, but Windows does a way better job in recovering from a GPU driver crash. The monolithic nature of Linux means a GPU driver crash will often kill the whole system. I had a case where the system recovered, but in a new desktop session with my running desktop applications orphaned somewhere (basically forcing me to restart). Windows usually just restarts the GPU driver (because it’s mostly running in user space, which it isn’t in Linux) and you can continue.
I also had an issue with my network adapter (Intel 2.5G onboard) dropping connection after several hours of use. A workaround involved editing boot parameters to prevent PCIe from going into some sort of power saving mode. Searching for the issue revealed that it’s likely because how ASUS (mainboard) configured the onboard network adapter.
You’ll also need to fiddle with Feral GameMode to properly pin games to the 3D cache cores on a 7950X3D. This is more “set and forget” with Windows Game Bar.
To be honest, Windows is a pretty solid OS from a technical perspective. It has its downsides, but so has Linux. Don’t switch for an allegedly technical superior experience. Switch if you don’t agree with what Microsoft is doing from a user experience perspective. That’s why I switched.
All that being said, Linux at its core is super stable. I use Linux on a few servers for many, many years now, and I don’t think I ever had a system crash.
Thanks for the detailed write up. My main motivation or switching is Microsofts way of doing things, im tired of the forced subscription plans they’re moving too.
I wish i could have XP and be done with it haha
It’s perfectly stable. Linux just generally attracts people who like to tinker and tweak things, in particular because it’s much easier to do and gives you a lot of power and flexibility in making the machine your own.
My laptop running Arch Linux has remained problem-free for the last 6 years or so since I installed it.
yeah i’ve basically never had an issue that wasn’t my fault for tinkering with something that is either unstable or that i didn’t understand well enough.
i will say that rolling releases like arch can introduce system-breaking issues (it happened to me like twice in the 3 years i’ve been running arch, but man it sucks when it happens) so users who aren’t so into tweaking and messing with their systems should probably opt for something more stable.
I would argue that, even if you’re not into tinkering, you’re still better off running a solidly proven Linux distro that requires minimal to no maintenance other than software updates (Debian stable, PopOS, Linux Mint, etc.). Just “flatpak” your way into having what you want, and leave the system itself alone, just like you do with Windows, but with less chance of something breaking and driving you mad when you suddenly land a BSOD. In any case, it’s highly likely that you’ll end up beginning to tinker after somentime feeling comfortable with Linux, happens to everyone I know has come to this side of happiness. Be aware that, once you are used to ANY Linux use, you’ll be wondering why you put up with all the Microsoft or Apple crap for so long. I can’t imagine ever going back to that.
