Hey, I read man pages all that time, Vi/Vim are just unreasonably complicated. Sure, those commands had sense when there were no key modifiers available on keyboards, but in this day and age, to not at least add some shortcuts to be part of the program by default… thanks, but if I have to read a man page to exit a terminal text editor, that’s just not really my cup of tea.
I don’t know when or why I learned vi, but once I used it for that short period of time I got used to it and it’s just muscle memory for me now. 99% of the dime I’m using x to delete text, yy (or #yy) and dd (or #dd) or p/P to copy/delete/paste lines, or :s/oldtext/newtext/g, or :wq or :x to write and quit. That’s like basically all I ever use VI for and it’s quick and easy to do. Once you know it, like anything, it’s quite a nice editor. Of course it can do a lot more than I typically use it for.
If you think it’s complicated, think about the first time you had to type sudo apt-get install firefox instead of googling Firefox and double clicking an executable.
sure, but there are so many commands that are absolute godsends.
one of my favourites is the c command.
I can just write ct" and change all the text up to the next speech mark.
and if you dislike some of the binds, make your own! (n)vi(m) is super customisable.
just because it’s not familiar doesn’t mean it’s bad.
I guess someone can make use of this all, just not regular users. Besides, the controls are very legacy and it would make sense to make an updated version just to keep it more in line with tools people are used to and generally enhance user experience.
Convenience is often a tradeoff for power. Nobody is claiming that vi and its derivatives are convenient, they’re saying it’s powerful.
Personally I’m much much faster using neovim than I could be using something like vscode. There’s a myriad of other benefits that modal text editing brings to the table, not having to use a mouse and constantly switch back and forth being a big one for me.
By that logic get away from Linux, eventually you’ll have to touch a shell and google some things to find out what to type inside a terminal. It’s not hard to learn i for insert and type stuff and esc to get out, colon x to save and quit. If you can’t remember those 3 steps you can’t even update your system on a command line lol.
The terminal commands have same idea and structure and apply to the entirety of your system. While it is still sometimes annoying to learn CLI commands of third-party apps (yes, I know of man, but it can be useless without examples at times), commands are generally the same for Linux systems and they cover everything.
Learning vim is like learning Linux terminal again, but for just one task of word processing in one specific application. Why?
With that being said, I’d rather solve most of my problems with GUI applications rather than go into a terminal. I can do stuff through terminal - I know basics of Linux/Unix commands - but just why? For most routine tasks, it is simply faster and easier to go with GUI, unless you are over SSH or just have a terminal-only instance, or unless you’re a sysadmin that does it 20 times each day and have muscle memory running in front of thinking what you wanna do.
I know how to update packages through terminal - the thing you demonstrate. But I can also press two buttons in app store and it will all be done for me, so why bother? (Also, you call it three steps, but it’s kinda two steps on Debian or other apt-based distros followed by one step in Arch and other pacman-enabled ones? I’m confused)
I’m certainly not gonna use terminal for word processing unless I absolutely have to. And for that, I’ll pick nano.
Linux has to get more user-friendly - and it does. Most people are not die-hard terminal fanatics and want to get their stuff done with minimal headache - and that’s where it goes and should go. Being vim elitist doubles down on that terminal philosophy that is alien to an average user. And we should not discourage any type of user to try Linux for as long as they are willing to figure truly necessary stuff out.
Hey, I read man pages all that time, Vi/Vim are just unreasonably complicated. Sure, those commands had sense when there were no key modifiers available on keyboards, but in this day and age, to not at least add some shortcuts to be part of the program by default… thanks, but if I have to read a man page to exit a terminal text editor, that’s just not really my cup of tea.
If you like modifier keys so much you are going to love emacs (default, not evil)
Cool, might try it 👍.
It’s a trap
I don’t know when or why I learned vi, but once I used it for that short period of time I got used to it and it’s just muscle memory for me now. 99% of the dime I’m using x to delete text, yy (or #yy) and dd (or #dd) or p/P to copy/delete/paste lines, or :s/oldtext/newtext/g, or :wq or :x to write and quit. That’s like basically all I ever use VI for and it’s quick and easy to do. Once you know it, like anything, it’s quite a nice editor. Of course it can do a lot more than I typically use it for.
If you think it’s complicated, think about the first time you had to type sudo apt-get install firefox instead of googling Firefox and double clicking an executable.
You just kindly described why no one ever should use Vim :D
Using xyzbdvefsisgshs to copy-paste a line is not the level of convenience someone expects from a modern tool
sure, but there are so many commands that are absolute godsends. one of my favourites is the c command. I can just write ct" and change all the text up to the next speech mark. and if you dislike some of the binds, make your own! (n)vi(m) is super customisable.
just because it’s not familiar doesn’t mean it’s bad.
Fair enough.
I guess someone can make use of this all, just not regular users. Besides, the controls are very legacy and it would make sense to make an updated version just to keep it more in line with tools people are used to and generally enhance user experience.
I think gvim does that, but i’m not sure.
Will take a look, thanks
Convenience is often a tradeoff for power. Nobody is claiming that vi and its derivatives are convenient, they’re saying it’s powerful.
Personally I’m much much faster using neovim than I could be using something like vscode. There’s a myriad of other benefits that modal text editing brings to the table, not having to use a mouse and constantly switch back and forth being a big one for me.
By that logic get away from Linux, eventually you’ll have to touch a shell and google some things to find out what to type inside a terminal. It’s not hard to learn i for insert and type stuff and esc to get out, colon x to save and quit. If you can’t remember those 3 steps you can’t even update your system on a command line lol.
sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get upgrade sudo pacman -Syyu
Etc. 3+ things to remember in each example.
The terminal commands have same idea and structure and apply to the entirety of your system. While it is still sometimes annoying to learn CLI commands of third-party apps (yes, I know of man, but it can be useless without examples at times), commands are generally the same for Linux systems and they cover everything.
Learning vim is like learning Linux terminal again, but for just one task of word processing in one specific application. Why?
With that being said, I’d rather solve most of my problems with GUI applications rather than go into a terminal. I can do stuff through terminal - I know basics of Linux/Unix commands - but just why? For most routine tasks, it is simply faster and easier to go with GUI, unless you are over SSH or just have a terminal-only instance, or unless you’re a sysadmin that does it 20 times each day and have muscle memory running in front of thinking what you wanna do.
I know how to update packages through terminal - the thing you demonstrate. But I can also press two buttons in app store and it will all be done for me, so why bother? (Also, you call it three steps, but it’s kinda two steps on Debian or other apt-based distros followed by one step in Arch and other pacman-enabled ones? I’m confused)
I’m certainly not gonna use terminal for word processing unless I absolutely have to. And for that, I’ll pick nano.
Linux has to get more user-friendly - and it does. Most people are not die-hard terminal fanatics and want to get their stuff done with minimal headache - and that’s where it goes and should go. Being vim elitist doubles down on that terminal philosophy that is alien to an average user. And we should not discourage any type of user to try Linux for as long as they are willing to figure truly necessary stuff out.
To each their own
The most reasonable approach, I guess.
Dont dare to insult the pinnacle of text editing.