Why do you(liberals/westerners) have an obsession with spreading/lies/rumors/exaggerations and sinophobia? And before you do the hate the government not the people white saviour nonsense even according to harvard the government satisfaction rate is in the 90%s the CPC has over 100 million members (over 1/14 people) the government is made up of and vastly supported by the people they’re not separable in that manor.
I didn’t join Lemmy for politics so I usually read these discussions from the sidelines, but there are some points that maybe you guys can help me with.
As someone against US’s imperialism and capitalism, I seem to be a prime candidate to support the Chinese worldviews, but it’s really difficult for me to get past my concerns. First of all I always see these rebuttals to criticism about China that compare it to the US or say that “westerners” are in no position to criticise. Which from my Eastern European point of view is just annoying because I’m far more critical of these anyway and the whataboutism doesn’t actually address anything.
I had 3 “personal experiences” with Chinese people. One back when I was at university and was studying with a Chinese exchange student. We were talking about university stuff for days being all buddies, when I was helping him with some app not working on his phone, which turned out to be due to the lack of Google services. Being relevant to the topic, I asked about the Chinese firewall. I expected anything between “It’s not a problem, we use Chinese services anyway”, or “It’s not a problem, it’s easy to work around”, or “I think it’s good, it protects against X and Y” or even “I prefer not to talk about it”. But instead he looked at me as if I just insulted his grandma, left, and never interacted with me again.
A few years later I was talking with a Chinese acquietance at a bar, there were some local political news on the TV and he cracked a joke about the politician shown, I joked back about the CCP. He looked insulted and stopped talking to me. Come on you started and it’s all in good heart… Maybe these 2 people were just weirdos and not representative, but that’s my experience.
Then there was a Chinese person making science videos online, posted on BiliBili and YouTube that I watched for a long time. One time they made a different video about how they are disillusioned about life in China and it was critical of some aspects of Chinese politics. After years of making content, it was their last video and all their social media were deleted shortly after. I’m not saying it’s government intervention, maybe they did want to just randomly stop making content without saying a word, everything is possible.
But all these experiences tell me Chinese society is not accepting of even apparent criticism, which does not look like a free society to me. Someone else under this post says all criticism, even if constructive and in good faith, serves western propaganda interests. Which… Sure I don’t disagree, but how can anyone buy in to an idea if they are not allowed to question it? I personally never got into these communities because I know I’m more likely to be accused of being US-paid bot or whatever than to get a good faith answer to my questions.
I don’t know where I’m going with this. I guess I’m just telling you lot that you could be more approachable because I think you are pushing back on would-be allies.
On your first issue I can’t really talk on this as I don’t know what specific criticisms you’re talking about and people who are on here and in general are not a hive mind and believe different things for different reasons. However if I were to make an educated guess I would say most of it comes down to stick in your eye Vs speck in ours as you fall sort of generally under the status of US client state and at current most of Europe, the US and their client states are sliding fast and hard towards fascism once again.
On your first experience that sounds like an extreme reaction by any chance do you remember what you said specifically? On the firewall more generally:
The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate with impunity: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations far harder or close to impossible to run at scale. I support it and so do many others as the alternative is plain to see.
On the second experience again I’d have to hear the joke it is possible you said something racist bigoted or otherwise harmful without realising due to possibly lacking context. Also it’s CPC not CCP. CCP is the acronym pushed by the US to attempt to pull it closer to the CCCP in people’s mind so they can reuse coldwar/redscare propaganda.
Then on your third experience again hard to say without knowing exactly what their criticism was but sounds like they had their own issues.
On your closing paragraph I think 3 anecdotes really doesn’t give a good view of a society of 1.4 billion people, in reality criticism is extremely common from didi drivers to friends to colleagues and smalltalk. Not to mind the local party offices whose entire purpose is recieving feedback and criticisms and then acting on them to build up merit to be able to run for higher office.
On communist Lemmy communities I really rarely see people being called US bots, in fact I have never once seen it. If you come in regurgitating propaganda with a smug attitude and doubling down in the face of facts contrary to your narrative you’ll definitely get some sharp responses, however people seem to generally prefer to educate than deride so long as you ask in good faith and are polite (communists also appear to want to minimise ableist or dehumanising language even against people they don’t like as opposed to the more “liberal” instances). On the other hand what is extremely common and has happened to me personally many times is non communist Lemmy instance users calling me and others a bot, brainwashed, shill, government agent etc. when its pointed out that reality doesn’t actually match with the narratives they have internalised.
I think if you have genuine curiosity and questions you should try asking around on communities like AskLemmygrad or any other other lemmy.ml, hexbear, lemmygrad communist communities that take questions and you’ll likely be pleasantly surprised.
The average westerner has their entire concept of reality built upon the idea that capitalism is “as good as it gets” and that people are divided roughly 50/50 into two separate camps, therefore a government with broad approval is impossible. They can’t see that their culture wars are manufactured precisely to keep them from ever questioning that system. They throw aside any high approval rating as manufactured. (Nevermind the fact that those states that do have manufactured approval ratings are imperial puppets and China is obviously not one of those.)
To those libs who love to talk about the 99%, I posit the following: if a government actually were made by and for the 99%, wouldn’t you expect it to have high approval ratings?
Why do you(liberals/westerners) have an obsession with spreading/lies/rumors/exaggerations and sinophobia? And before you do the hate the government not the people white saviour nonsense even according to harvard the government satisfaction rate is in the 90%s the CPC has over 100 million members (over 1/14 people) the government is made up of and vastly supported by the people they’re not separable in that manor.
I didn’t join Lemmy for politics so I usually read these discussions from the sidelines, but there are some points that maybe you guys can help me with.
As someone against US’s imperialism and capitalism, I seem to be a prime candidate to support the Chinese worldviews, but it’s really difficult for me to get past my concerns. First of all I always see these rebuttals to criticism about China that compare it to the US or say that “westerners” are in no position to criticise. Which from my Eastern European point of view is just annoying because I’m far more critical of these anyway and the whataboutism doesn’t actually address anything.
I had 3 “personal experiences” with Chinese people. One back when I was at university and was studying with a Chinese exchange student. We were talking about university stuff for days being all buddies, when I was helping him with some app not working on his phone, which turned out to be due to the lack of Google services. Being relevant to the topic, I asked about the Chinese firewall. I expected anything between “It’s not a problem, we use Chinese services anyway”, or “It’s not a problem, it’s easy to work around”, or “I think it’s good, it protects against X and Y” or even “I prefer not to talk about it”. But instead he looked at me as if I just insulted his grandma, left, and never interacted with me again.
A few years later I was talking with a Chinese acquietance at a bar, there were some local political news on the TV and he cracked a joke about the politician shown, I joked back about the CCP. He looked insulted and stopped talking to me. Come on you started and it’s all in good heart… Maybe these 2 people were just weirdos and not representative, but that’s my experience.
Then there was a Chinese person making science videos online, posted on BiliBili and YouTube that I watched for a long time. One time they made a different video about how they are disillusioned about life in China and it was critical of some aspects of Chinese politics. After years of making content, it was their last video and all their social media were deleted shortly after. I’m not saying it’s government intervention, maybe they did want to just randomly stop making content without saying a word, everything is possible.
But all these experiences tell me Chinese society is not accepting of even apparent criticism, which does not look like a free society to me. Someone else under this post says all criticism, even if constructive and in good faith, serves western propaganda interests. Which… Sure I don’t disagree, but how can anyone buy in to an idea if they are not allowed to question it? I personally never got into these communities because I know I’m more likely to be accused of being US-paid bot or whatever than to get a good faith answer to my questions.
I don’t know where I’m going with this. I guess I’m just telling you lot that you could be more approachable because I think you are pushing back on would-be allies.
On your first issue I can’t really talk on this as I don’t know what specific criticisms you’re talking about and people who are on here and in general are not a hive mind and believe different things for different reasons. However if I were to make an educated guess I would say most of it comes down to stick in your eye Vs speck in ours as you fall sort of generally under the status of US client state and at current most of Europe, the US and their client states are sliding fast and hard towards fascism once again.
On your first experience that sounds like an extreme reaction by any chance do you remember what you said specifically? On the firewall more generally: The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate with impunity: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations far harder or close to impossible to run at scale. I support it and so do many others as the alternative is plain to see.
On the second experience again I’d have to hear the joke it is possible you said something racist bigoted or otherwise harmful without realising due to possibly lacking context. Also it’s CPC not CCP. CCP is the acronym pushed by the US to attempt to pull it closer to the CCCP in people’s mind so they can reuse coldwar/redscare propaganda.
Then on your third experience again hard to say without knowing exactly what their criticism was but sounds like they had their own issues.
On your closing paragraph I think 3 anecdotes really doesn’t give a good view of a society of 1.4 billion people, in reality criticism is extremely common from didi drivers to friends to colleagues and smalltalk. Not to mind the local party offices whose entire purpose is recieving feedback and criticisms and then acting on them to build up merit to be able to run for higher office.
On communist Lemmy communities I really rarely see people being called US bots, in fact I have never once seen it. If you come in regurgitating propaganda with a smug attitude and doubling down in the face of facts contrary to your narrative you’ll definitely get some sharp responses, however people seem to generally prefer to educate than deride so long as you ask in good faith and are polite (communists also appear to want to minimise ableist or dehumanising language even against people they don’t like as opposed to the more “liberal” instances). On the other hand what is extremely common and has happened to me personally many times is non communist Lemmy instance users calling me and others a bot, brainwashed, shill, government agent etc. when its pointed out that reality doesn’t actually match with the narratives they have internalised.
I think if you have genuine curiosity and questions you should try asking around on communities like AskLemmygrad or any other other lemmy.ml, hexbear, lemmygrad communist communities that take questions and you’ll likely be pleasantly surprised.
Do note that these three anecdotes, particularly without complete context, do not paint an accurate nor complete picture on their own.
That being said, you’re replying to a very knowledgeable Chinese user who I’m sure can help clear things up if you’re open for it.
The average westerner has their entire concept of reality built upon the idea that capitalism is “as good as it gets” and that people are divided roughly 50/50 into two separate camps, therefore a government with broad approval is impossible. They can’t see that their culture wars are manufactured precisely to keep them from ever questioning that system. They throw aside any high approval rating as manufactured. (Nevermind the fact that those states that do have manufactured approval ratings are imperial puppets and China is obviously not one of those.)
To those libs who love to talk about the 99%, I posit the following: if a government actually were made by and for the 99%, wouldn’t you expect it to have high approval ratings?